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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Hi Judger,

I did your formula using 2019 1040 Total Income and we are way over "twice wealth expected." When I was discharged from the Navy in 1965 I had saved just enough money to pay for my junior year (transfer student) tuition at  Bucknell University ($5,000). Because I was 23 at the time I was housed away from the younger students. There I became friends with the other poorest student on campus. He was a freshman from Zambia just starting his degree program (CE) and also 23. We now joke about just how poor we were.

I do not know how wealthy he is because we talk mostly about families and friends as a opposed to wealth and income. But I know a lot about what he owns. So tell me as a starting point what a dairy farm with about 3200 holstein milking cows and 800 or so beef cattle in Zambia worth?

S

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth


@NSkipper wrote:

Hi Judger,

I did your formula using 2019 1040 Total Income and we are way over "twice wealth expected." When I was discharged from the Navy in 1965 I had saved just enough money to pay for my junior year (transfer student) tuition at  Bucknell University ($5,000). Because I was 23 at the time I was housed away from the younger students. There I became friends with the other poorest student on campus. He was a freshman from Zambia just starting his degree program (CE) and also 23. We now joke about just how poor we were.

I do not know how wealthy he is because we talk mostly about families and friends as a opposed to wealth and income. But I know a lot about what he owns. So tell me as a starting point what a dairy farm with about 3200 holstein milking cows and 800 or so beef cattle in Zambia worth?

S


Congratulation, Skip!!!!    :-)))

Skip, if you have not read Stanley's books, I strongly recommend them. The GREAT value in his books is finding out who is really wealthy and who is just "big hat, no cattle" (SURPRISE!!!) and how they did it. They did NOT inherit it (and neither did we and many others on this forum). Then there are the insights into how to get there and what to avoid, especially for how you handle money with the kids.

This guy, unfortunately, was killed by a drunk driver a few years back. He was a noted PHd that studied "wealthy" people and was in demand from advertisers seeking to reach the rich. His failed attempts due to assumptions, prejudices and lack of facts are a very interesting and enlightening story. I fell that every parent should read these books in order to guide their strategy on handling wealth and the kids.

ENJOY!!!    :-)))

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

"The GREAT value in his books is finding out who is really wealthy and who is just "big hat, no cattle" (SURPRISE!!!) and how they did it."

Seriously, Judger, that's your pursuit of knowledge?

Learning how to manage money certainly is an essential skill, but if one can sustain one's lifestyle why should I care about someone else's number? I don't live by comparison.

Maybe the book you should  read is John Bogle's Enough.

https://www.amazon.com/Enough-True-Measures-Money-Business-ebook/dp/B001FA0WWK

Bob

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth


@GLI2019 wrote:

"The GREAT value in his books is finding out who is really wealthy and who is just "big hat, no cattle" (SURPRISE!!!) and how they did it."

Seriously, Judger, that's your pursuit of knowledge?

Learning how to manage money certainly is an essential skill, but if one can sustain one's lifestyle why should I care about someone else's number? I don't live by comparison.

Maybe the book you should  read is John Bogle's Enough.

https://www.amazon.com/Enough-True-Measures-Money-Business-ebook/dp/B001FA0WWK

Bob


You are confusing me and my message, Bob. I am not advocating reaching some number. I just presented a definition of what real wealth is according to an expert. No pretenses. Just facts. I also eluded to real people who came from modest backgrounds and obtained this wealth using only their sweat, hard work and intellect.

Have you read Stanley's books, Bob? The whole theme is to differentiate between "wealth" as show/income and what real "wealth" is. The bottom line is how and what kind of hard-working, frugal, non-pretentious folks obtained real wealth. They did NOT do it for show. They did it for security and to utilize their abilities, even if they do NOT have a PHd or inheritance or inflated incomes with no substance behind them.

I just experienced this week such a couple that bought our decades old beautiful canoe for a family float. Young immigrants or maybe 2nd generation. Young kids. Work truck with large trailer. His Facebook profile said he worked in a tire shop. NO! He owned the tire shop and had training as a welder! IMHO they are going to be one of Stanley's PAW millionaires next store.    :-)))

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth


@judger wrote:

 

Seriously, Judger...

 

Maybe the book you should  read is John Bogle's Enough.

https://www.amazon.com/Enough-True-Measures-Money-Business-ebook/dp/B001FA0WWK

Bob(GL12019)


You are confusing me and my message, Bob. I am not advocating reaching some number. I just presented a definition of what real wealth is according to an expert. No pretenses. Just facts. I also eluded to real people who came from modest backgrounds and obtained this wealth using only their sweat, hard work and intellect.

Have you read Stanley's books, Bob? The whole theme is to differentiate between "wealth" as show/income and what real "wealth" is. The bottom line is how and what kind of hard-working, frugal, non-pretentious folks obtained real wealth. They did NOT do it for show. They did it for security and to utilize their abilities, even if they do NOT have a PHd or inheritance or inflated incomes with no substance behind them.

 

 


Well, how much is enough?

I retired at age 48, on a $650,000 portfolio, taking $48,000 a year withdrawals to live on.

About 12 years ago I made an OP on Bogleheads.org titled "IRA at one million dollars; shares wisdom learned",  apparently having entered the "millionaire next door "club.  (No PHD).

Today, portfolio much larger still.  And I don't deny myself anything below my traditional way/standard of living.  (But COVID has decreased spending).

R48

 

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Yes, Judger, I read The Millionaire Next Door years ago and nothing he said surprised me.

I was always taught it's bad form to openly discuss one's wealth (even with our children).  They know we have a plan, they know who is executor, and they know the law firm alone knows our net worth.

As I grow older, my Lutheran upbringing kicks in more strongly (I'm getting closer to my grave :-):

"And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth."

Stay well.

Bob

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Trying to Define Wealth is a fools errand. And is in the eye of the beholder.

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

When I was a kid, this was wealth. Doing the backstroke in a vault full of money.  10 Ways to Save Money for Disney World or Disneyland | The Kingdom Insider

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Scrooge Mcduck Swimming In Money GIFs | Tenor

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Regarding "The Millionaire Next Door", the book was not a startling revelation, as I read through it I realized that I already pretty much had the same mind-set as the theme of the book.  But it was very helpful in that  it clarified and sharpened some points that I already had, and it was nice to have two respected authors validate my thinking.  For me, this type of finance book is the best kind - fun to read and educational at the same time.  And for someone just starting out in the investing game, I think this book plus Andrew Tobias' "The Only Investment Guide You Will Ever Need" would be a great place to start.  Tobias acknowleges that there are many good investing books besides his, and tounge in cheek blames his editor for the title, saying he went along in a moment of weakness.  Just make sure you get the latest edition, it was first published in 1978.  But as a way to think of money and finances, "The Millionaire Next Door" is hard to beat.

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Juris, when I was a kid, I thought that $2.25 to 2.50 for 45-50 Sunday papers delivered and maybe $5.00 in tips on the Sunday before Christmas was rich.   :-)))

 

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

When our weekly allowance was raised to 75 cents, we thought we had it made.

On the income side, my 1963 summer job as a grocery bag-boy, receiving an hourly wage of $1.305, was IT. Brought to me by the effective bargaining power of the Retail Clerks Union, Local 770.

Something else I learned that summer (after my sophomore year in college) was that if I worked hard I could really cash in. The manager gave me more hours than the other guys, and he gave me premium hours (evenings and weekends), so I was making up to 30% on top of the basic wage. And I saved that money!*

* This was at the White Front grocery in Canoga Park, CA.

ADDED: My income really went up in the summer after I'd earned my BA and before I set off for graduate school. That was in 1965. At first I had a job working for "Hollywood Generator," delivering reburbished starters and generators to autobody and service stations around LA. One of those places was the motorpool at Paramount Pictures studio. When I arrived there one of the dispatchers looked at me and said "Don't I know you?" Turned out he was the father of a good friend of mine from college. He asked, "How much are you getting paid?" When I told him $1.60 per hour he said "We can do better than that." He hired me as a driver for Paramount, at Teamsters Union scale of $3.415 per hour.

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Best job I ever had in college was working Christmas break for UPS. We would load the truck with furniture from a Department store in L.A (the Broadway) and then deliver out to the Valley.

Once the load was done, my boss would take me out for 🍺. 

Bob 

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth


@GLI2019 wrote:

🍺. 

Bob 


Hmmm, If I can afford beer I might be wealthy??? :cheers:

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

David,

There was a tasting room for Pabst in downtown L.A.  After Friday class, we would head to Pabst for the beginning of the weekend.

The only problem, in retrospect, is what passed for beer  was c r a p (we just didn't know it).

Here in Michigan we have such New Age delights as:

https://tinyurl.com/yxwykutw

Bob

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

"Money helps, but there are more important things.  Health, family, peace of mind, good values, wisdom, education/skills, etc."

Sure, but how much money is the question.

Many people can't do lots of stuff they want to do but are OK  1) Suppose we want to visit Europe for 4 weeks (using Hotels/motels, restaurants and renting a car). You can do it on less than $10K but you can spend $30K, both are good options but you can't do it on $2-3K.  2) Suppose your vehicle had a major repair (several thousands)  3) Suppose you have a medical procedure and you owe thousands.  Can you afford it?  That's the difference.

Do you have a pension large enough to cover your expenses or most it and/or maybe much lower health insurance? This is huge.  Who has it? State/Gov/School/university employees.  I also "love" hearing multi-millionaire and billionaires that say let's tax the rich after they got it already.  These 2 groups don't care about how much money they have because their expenses are covered already and everything else is the icing on the cake.

So how much is enough for us? When our portfolio can cover at least 25 times our annual expenses not including SS.  The rest is the icing on the cake and that icing is getting pretty big :-)

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth


@Learner wrote:

Help me please.  What was the saying?  If your income exceeds your needs, you are rich.  If your income falls short of your needs, you are poor.  Something like that, I can't remember.

Money helps, but there are more important things.  Health, family, peace of mind, good values, wisdom, education/skills, etc.

What matters to me is whether I have achieved my goals; which only I and my wife know.

https://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/family-finance/articles/are-you-rich-how-the-wealthy...


@Learner 

Is it really the achievement of your goals ... or is it the pursuit of those goals?  

Either way, it does seem odd that you want to have a discussion about Wealth but are reticent to discuss yours.  

It reminds me a bit of one of my favorite scenes in the film Up In The Air

Natalie Keener: [in hotel restaurant] Hungry much?

Ryan Bingham: Our business expense allots forty dollars each for dinner. I plan on grabbing as many miles as I can.

Natalie Keener: Okay, you got to fill me in on the miles thing. What is that about? You're talking about, like, frequent flyer miles?

Ryan Bingham: You really want to know?

Natalie Keener: I'm dying to know.

Ryan Bingham: I don't spend a nickel, if I can help it, unless it somehow profits my mileage account.

Natalie Keener: So, what are you saving up for? Hawaii? South of France?

Ryan Bingham: It's not like that. The miles are the goal.

Natalie Keener: That's it? You're saving just to save?

Ryan Bingham: Let's just say that I have a number in mind and I haven't hit it yet.

Natalie Keener: That's a little abstract. What's the target?

Ryan Bingham: I'd rather not...

Natalie Keener: [Teasing] Is it a secret target?

ctyankee

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

ctyankee,

I do not understand your post or your point but I am willing to engage to understand it. 

"Is it really the achievement of your goals ... or is it the pursuit of those goals?"

In the past, it was the pursuit.  I passed the goal post years ago.  But I would have had no regrets if I had not achieved my goal.

"Either way, it does seem odd that you want to have a discussion about Wealth but are reticent to discuss yours."

If it seems odd to you, so be it.  The subject line says "Definition of Wealth".  I do not see anything odd about not discussing my finances, if it is what you mean.  I am not interested in your wealth or finances.  Besides, I already wrote that I consider some other things in life more important.  If you want to contribute, contribute.

I have not seen that movie.  Thanks for sharing those lines from the movie.  It sounds interesting.

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth


@Learner wrote:

ctyankee,

I do not understand your post or your point but I am willing to engage to understand it. 

"Is it really the achievement of your goals ... or is it the pursuit of those goals?"

In the past, it was the pursuit.  I passed the goal post years ago.  But I would have had no regrets if I had not achieved my goal.

"Either way, it does seem odd that you want to have a discussion about Wealth but are reticent to discuss yours."

If it seems odd to you, so be it.  The subject line says "Definition of Wealth".  I do not see anything odd about not discussing my finances, if it is what you mean.  I am not interested in your wealth or finances.  Besides, I already wrote that I consider some other things in life more important.  If you want to contribute, contribute.

I have not seen that movie.  Thanks for sharing those lines from the movie.  It sounds interesting.


+1

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Re: OT: Definition of Wealth

Love the movie "Up in the Air."

Trouble is: it's an entertaining movie about two seriously messed up characters. 😦

Bob

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