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Kings60Man
Follower ○○○

Electric Vehicle

Every car manufacturer is investing MILLIONS/B in electric car.

I am sure we will have enough choices in the 2-5 years - (hopefully we will have a winner).

Are you researching any?

I am saving my income tax savings to buy one - looking into Tesla Model Y & Hyundai Kona EV if they can produce enough.

 

 

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217 Replies
FD1001
Valued Contributor

Re: Electric Vehicle


@Kings60Man wrote:

Every car manufacturer is investing MILLIONS/B in electric car.

I am sure we will have enough choices in the 2-5 years - (hopefully we will have a winner).

Are you researching any?

I am saving my income tax savings to buy one - looking into Tesla Model Y & Hyundai Kona EV if they can produce enough.

 

 


If the best selling sedan in the USA is the Toyota Camry and I can buy a new Camry LE under $22K (and the XLE under $26K or the LE hybrid for about $25K), why would I want to buy an expensive EV? how many years it would take to break even?

FarcePoobah
Explorer ○

Re: Electric Vehicle

I'm very happy with a 2018 Toyota Prius Prime.

* 30 miles electric, charged here in MN at $.09 per kwh. Overnight, electric is a pretty high percent nuclear (aka not coal).   50-55 mpg on gas.

* Excellent acceleration into freeway traffic.

* A bunch of safety features to help me be safe to others, and myself, while in motion.

As the energy density of batteries improves over time, and production costs continue to fall,  there will come a point where pure electrics become competitive to hybrids in terms of cost to drive / cost to buy / range / travel time.  Until then, I'm happy getting about 75% of my auto miles on electric.

 

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Intruder
Participant ○○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

Where is all the lithium to make the batteries for all the electric cars going to come from? There are only about 7 countries where it is mined and some countries such as the Congo are unstable and use child labor to mine lithium. And where will all the lithium from junked cars be disposed of?

There are only about 900,000 electric cars in US out of a total of 275M cars or 0.33%. As of july 1 the tax credit for buying an electric car has declined to $1750 which is about 25% of what it used to be. There are stories that major auto co sell electric cars at a loss in order to meet CAFE mileage standards which allows them to sell more SUVs and light trucks which generate the highest profits. And 50% of electric cars are sold in only 2 states: CA and OR .

Tesla will never be profitable selling the model 3 at $33k which needs to be sold at 50k+ to provide 12% profit margin. But 50k is well above price range of gasoline powered cars that most people can afford.

Finally who wants to spend 5+ hours charging an electric car at home or spend time looking for a charging station which can take an hour or more for a charge. How many charging stations are there on the Interstate highways?

BruceM
Participant ○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

EVs are fine for driving around the city, but not so fine for intercity travel.

The Tesla Model S 100D claims a range of around 315 miles with its 100KWH battery....but I'm sure that assumes no headwinds, relatively flat terrain and no heater/AC. So visiting our grandkids in Salt Lake City, about 840 miles, with the Tesla S would require timing charging stations along the way at least twice. But what happens if we get to the advertised Tesla charging station and its full? Do we locate another one in Burly Idaho and drive there or just wait for a spot to open up at the Tesla station?

I don't know how this kind of cross-country driving, particularly in the West where distances are longer, will be be done with EVs, particularly when there gets to be a lot of EVs running around.

BruceM

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Mortmain
Follower ○○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

Honda has entered the fray with an interesting small hatch and sports car. Definitely worth checking out. VW, Jaguar, and a host of others are basically electrifying their ordinary models. I’m waiting for innovation to heat up in the major auto manufacturers before deciding. Tesla in not one of them so presents more of a risk IMO. 

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racqueteer
Participant ○○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

I'll throw in my opinion, fwiw...  I think that, at present, electric vehicles are not a viable alternative to combustion engines for a variety of reasons; some previously cited.  We would need an EXTENSIVE charging infrastructure; huge costs with little current incentive.  It's expensive, inconvenient, and not really all that beneficial for the environment - when one considers construction requirements, electric generation specifics (still mostly combustible fuel, battery construction/recycling, etc).  Batteries remain a weak point in all this; poor energy density, poor energy retention, generation losses, weight, etc.  Yes, we push a lot of that overseas and don't see it here, but that doesn't make it less of a problem.  The only currently viable electric generation that is NOT combustion-based is nuclear, and THAT is in disfavor.  Without all these ducks in a row, how can electric vehicles possibly be widely successful?

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yogibearbull
Valued Contributor

Re: Electric Vehicle

My experience with Honda hybrid convinced me that battery remains a weak point. Dealer said I wasn't driving enough and that I let battery drain a couple of times [stuff happens] and THAT was bad for battery. I changed battery once under warranty and when it needed change again [out of warranty] , I got rid of it.

So, I won't be buying EV anytime soon.

YBB
helmut
Explorer ○○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

For anyone with an EV needing a charge in Houston just go to the Whole foods near me.  I’ve been driving by the Whole Foods store for five years and have never seen an EV using their charging station.

helmut

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yogibearbull
Valued Contributor

Re: Electric Vehicle

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Mustang
Explorer ○○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

Electric vehicles are not an option for us and  I seriously doubt they will work for us in the future.  We live in the country and drive used vehicles.  Our newest car is a 2003 Toyota Highlander with 260,000 miles.  My daily driver is a Mustang (210,000 miles). I also rely on a pickup (98,000 miles).  We hope to drive these for several more years.

I am not taking out a big loan to buy an electric car.  Used cars will always be a part of our future.  And it is my understanding that electric cars are pretty much scrap when the batteries need replaced (8 years/100,000 miles) so there won't be much of a used car market.

I think they might be a viable alternative for suburbia or the city where distances are not so great.  But they are going to be a novelty out here in the country.  By the way, it gets cold here in the winter.  We have to run a heater and I really like my air conditioner in the summer.  They really knock down the range.

 

Win1177
Participant ○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

Kings60Man, 

I’ll give my “two cents” (for what it’s worth- maybe a penny?),

We’re really AT LEAST several years away from fully electric vehicles being widely accepted & used on a nationwide basis. This is due to multiple issues noted in some of the other responses- lack of nationwide “charging network”, still relatively low “range” of FULLY electric vehicles, battery technology still not “good” (decline in ability to “hold” charge after 100K plus miles, etc.), etc.

A fully electric vehicle might work in your specific situation- larger city with broad array of charging locations, shorter commutes, ability to plug in at home and charge overnight, no “need” to drive longer distances (or second gas powered car), etc. So evaluate your specific situation before going FULLY electric. 

Hybrids are different matter! I purchased a used 2011 Lincoln MKZ hybrid back in 2014 (it was my father in laws who passed away), still relatively low miles (<25K), and I mainly drive it back/ forth to work (<60 miles/ day). It gets GREAT gas mileage (33-36 mpg combined city/ hwy), and it’s going strong at about 80K miles now. I really cannot tell the battery has declined any (yet). I really like it, great gas mileage, and I don’t have to “worry” about running out of a charge if I take a long trip, such as driving out west. I anticipate I’ll drive it for many years. On a full tank, I can go over 600 miles! I live in South Carolina, and down here we’re starting to see more charging stations, but their still NOT widely available, like in some places. 

Currently, it’s “questionable” if a hybrid “pays off” financially, you still get a small “credit” for them, but the Government seems to be slowly reducing the credits. Hybrids do produce less emissions overall, so if you want to be “environmentally friendly”, consider a Hybrid over a fully electric vehicle. Just my thoughts at this point in time. Maybe ten years from now, we’ll be ready for fully electric, but not yet.

Win
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sugarhill6
Explorer ○

Re: Electric Vehicle

I remember it taking half a day to download a song from the internet.   Fast forward to now, and my phone has more capabilities than my computer from those days.  15-20 years from now, we will be using a more efficient battery technology, solid state perhaps, but the market is already working on better technologies.  

The car phone, 30 years ago, cost roughly $15,000 in today's money.   Batteries will get cheaper and electric vehicles will get cheaper although we are probably 15 years away from parity with their gasoline counterparts. 

You assume that technology will stand still.   Non fossil fuel vehicles will be the standard 30 years from now.    

 

 

 

 


@Intruder wrote:

Where is all the lithium to make the batteries for all the electric cars going to come from? There are only about 7 countries where it is mined and some countries such as the Congo are unstable and use child labor to mine lithium. And where will all the lithium from junked cars be disposed of?

There are only about 900,000 electric cars in US out of a total of 275M cars or 0.33%. As of july 1 the tax credit for buying an electric car has declined to $1750 which is about 25% of what it used to be. There are stories that major auto co sell electric cars at a loss in order to meet CAFE mileage standards which allows them to sell more SUVs and light trucks which generate the highest profits. And 50% of electric cars are sold in only 2 states: CA and OR .

Tesla will never be profitable selling the model 3 at $33k which needs to be sold at 50k+ to provide 12% profit margin. But 50k is well above price range of gasoline powered cars that most people can afford.

Finally who wants to spend 5+ hours charging an electric car at home or spend time looking for a charging station which can take an hour or more for a charge. How many charging stations are there on the Interstate highways?


 

 

 

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FatKat
Participant ○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

My response is simple. it is too new of a concept for me. I have been around forklifts so i know a bit about batteries. I am deterred by the state if art on batteries. Mostly, I am too old to make that much change, and for several years now my main ride has driven a subcompact car that averages good mileage.

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archer
Participant ○

Re: Electric Vehicle

A simple way to think about the future of charging stations is take the current number of gas stations and multiply that by how much longer it takes to charge compared to filling up with gas. 

Well, maybe not that bad. Many gas stations are empty and the great majority of EV owners spend a couple minutes every night plugging their car in at home. Tesla has a supercharging station near me and I have never seen it even 50% full. I live in the bay area CA where electric cars are abundant. In 2018 13% of new car registrations were for electric cars (including plug in hybrids ) in the SF bay area. That is up from 7% in 2017. Public charging stations increased 39% and workplace charging stations increased over 50%. 

For long trips much of the west has enough superchargers to go to between any major metropolitan areas but charging does take a long time. Some argue that one would normally want to take a break from driving anyway but who wants to take a break at a charging station for 20-70 min? Not everyone is into fast food joints. 

I find fault with the idea that electric cars are less to maintain due to not having all the moving parts of an ICE. I have owned several cars, most of them 100-200K miles and I have never had to have any repairs to the engines. AC yes, brakes yes, electrical yes. The only engine related problems I have ever had was fluid hoses for heating and cooling which electric cars do not have. Oh wait, one time I did let an old VW run out of oil. Other than replacing spark plugs my experience is that gas engines can be expected to go 200K or more with minimal maintenance without any breakdowns. 

Lithium batteries can be recycled, and the lithium harvested. They can also be reconditioned. It makes no sense to junk thousands of dollars of a reusable battery bank. 

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Intruder
Participant ○○○

Re: Electric Vehicle


@archer wrote:

A simple way to think about the future of charging stations is take the current number of gas stations and multiply that by how much longer it takes to charge compared to filling up with gas. 

Well, maybe not that bad. Many gas stations are empty and the great majority of EV owners spend a couple minutes every night plugging their car in at home. Tesla has a supercharging station near me and I have never seen it even 50% full. I live in the bay area CA where electric cars are abundant. In 2018 13% of new car registrations were for electric cars (including plug in hybrids ) in the SF bay area. That is up from 7% in 2017. Public charging stations increased 39% and workplace charging stations increased over 50%. 

For long trips much of the west has enough superchargers to go to between any major metropolitan areas but charging does take a long time. Some argue that one would normally want to take a break from driving anyway but who wants to take a break at a charging station for 20-70 min? Not everyone is into fast food joints. 

I find fault with the idea that electric cars are less to maintain due to not having all the moving parts of an ICE. I have owned several cars, most of them 100-200K miles and I have never had to have any repairs to the engines. AC yes, brakes yes, electrical yes. The only engine related problems I have ever had was fluid hoses for heating and cooling which electric cars do not have. Oh wait, one time I did let an old VW run out of oil. Other than replacing spark plugs my experience is that gas engines can be expected to go 200K or more with minimal maintenance without any breakdowns. 

Lithium batteries can be recycled, and the lithium harvested. They can also be reconditioned. It makes no sense to junk thousands of dollars of a reusable battery bank. 


I don’t know where you got your math from but everything I have read about home charging is that it takes a minimum of 5 hours for a full charge. In winter the range of an EV declines by 25% because more accessories such as Heater and seat warmer are used which necessitates shutting off some accessories.

As for charging stations only place I have seen them is on the NJ turnpike at some rest stops.

The reason there are a lot of electric cars in SF is because 50% of all electric cars in the US are sold in CA and OR. Electric cars are less than 1/3 of one percent of all cars on the road in the US. 

And where is all the lithium to make millions of electric cars going to come from? Most expensive item in an ev is the battery which costs about $7k which boosts price of ev above average price of gas cars that get 30mpg which is all the middle class can afford. GM sells the volt at a loss because it improves the CAFE mileage which allows GM to sell more trucks and SUVs at a higher profit..

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Alwayslearning
Follower ○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

@Intruder 

As I read what @archer wrote, i believe he means it takes only a few minutes to connect the charger to the car every night. As in very convenient. It takes me 20-30 secs. I park my car, pull the cord off the wall and plug it and go inside. Reverse while leaving. Agreed the home charging itself takes more ( mine is probably an hour or so since i have the 220V). And absolutely right, range drops in cold weather. But i dont drive anywhere remotely close to the range (my range maxes near 310 miles i think).

To me the ability to charge at home is probably one of the bigger hidden benefits of EVs. It may seem not a big deal going to a gas station, but now that i dont need it for one car, the going to gas station and standing in line (at costco for example) for our other car (which is an ICE) seems to be a drag!! It feels the same as charging my phone at night. Plug it in and its ready to go morning.

Somewhere I read today about how apple hopes that more watch sales will occur as people get used to seeing others wear smartwatches. I feel the same with EVs.

Oh and minor point. You probably meant "Bolt" rather than "Volt". Yes strange choice of names. GM no longer sells the volt. Or maybe you were referring to in the past. I thought the hybrid volt was a decent looking car, not so much the Bolt.


@Intruder wrote:

I don’t know where you got your math from but everything I have read about home charging is that it takes a minimum of 5 hours for a full charge. In winter the range of an EV declines by 25% because more accessories such as Heater and seat warmer are used which necessitates shutting off some accessories.

As for charging stations only place I have seen them is on the NJ turnpike at some rest stops.

The reason there are a lot of electric cars in SF is because 50% of all electric cars in the US are sold in CA and OR. Electric cars are less than 0.0033% of all cars on the road. 

And where is all the lithium to make millions of electric cars going to come from? Most expensive item in an ev is the battery which costs about $7k which boosts price of ev above average price of gas cars that get 30mpg which is all the middle class can afford. GM sells the volt at a loss because it improves the CAFE mileage which allows GM to sell more trucks and SUVs at a higher profit..


 

 

 

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BruceM
Participant ○○

Re: Electric Vehicle

@Alwayslearning 

The principal reason plugging-in at home is so  easy is the same reason filling up your car at Costco would be so easy if no one else was doing the same thing. If even 50% of daily commuters were using EVs, it would not be so easy, as the power grid simply doesn't provide enough electricity. I did the math a while back, and the 10 or so TWatt-Hours produced in the US each day would be barely sufficient to provide the electricity required to fuel all US automobiles based on current driving. This would probably require being assigned a specific time to charge...that may be in the early morning...requiring adding a timer and then monitoring to ensure you got enough juice. And what happens when there's a glitch and the power grid has to shut down? Do all affected households just stay home the next day?

Logistically, how ever you slice it, going a majority EVs will be a nightmare. Part of that is our transportation system has evolved over the past 100 years to petroleum based energy and part is the inherent physical limitation of trying to store enough electrons into something we can navigate sufficiently and safely. A gallon of gasoline is an ideal high energy storage medium. A battery is not.

Just some ramblings....

BruceM

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Intruder
Participant ○○○

Re: Electric Vehicle


@Alwayslearning wrote:

@Intruder 

As I read what @archer wrote, i believe he means it takes only a few minutes to connect the charger to the car every night. As in very convenient. It takes me 20-30 secs. I park my car, pull the cord off the wall and plug it and go inside. Reverse while leaving. Agreed the home charging itself takes more ( mine is probably an hour or so since i have the 220V). And absolutely right, range drops in cold weather. But i dont drive anywhere remotely close to the range (my range maxes near 310 miles i think).

To me the ability to charge at home is probably one of the bigger hidden benefits of EVs. It may seem not a big deal going to a gas station, but now that i dont need it for one car, the going to gas station and standing in line (at costco for example) for our other car (which is an ICE) seems to be a drag!! It feels the same as charging my phone at night. Plug it in and its ready to go morning.

Somewhere I read today about how apple hopes that more watch sales will occur as people get used to seeing others wear smartwatches. I feel the same with EVs.

Oh and minor point. You probably meant "Bolt" rather than "Volt". Yes strange choice of names. GM no longer sells the volt. Or maybe you were referring to in the past. I thought the hybrid volt was a decent looking car, not so much the Bolt.


@Intruder wrote:

I don’t know where you got your math from but everything I have read about home charging is that it takes a minimum of 5 hours for a full charge. In winter the range of an EV declines by 25% because more accessories such as Heater and seat warmer are used which necessitates shutting off some accessories.

As for charging stations only place I have seen them is on the NJ turnpike at some rest stops.

The reason there are a lot of electric cars in SF is because 50% of all electric cars in the US are sold in CA and OR. Electric cars are less than 0.0033% of all cars on the road. 

And where is all the lithium to make millions of electric cars going to come from? Most expensive item in an ev is the battery which costs about $7k which boosts price of ev above average price of gas cars that get 30mpg which is all the middle class can afford. GM sells the volt at a loss because it improves the CAFE mileage which allows GM to sell more trucks and SUVs at a higher profit..


 

 

 


I don’t know why charging at home would be a hidden benefit of an EV. It only takes me 3-4 minutes to fill up my car and I never worry about running accessories in the winter and I never have to worry about finding a charging station.

Why would consumers by an ev just because someone else has one especially if EV costs more? I haven’t seen an EV in NJ because the winters are not friendly to them.

Regardless of whether it’s a bolt or a volt it’s still a money loser for GM which is why it will never be mass produced. 

 

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archer
Participant ○

Re: Electric Vehicle


@Intruder wrote:

@archer wrote:

A simple way to think about the future of charging stations is take the current number of gas stations and multiply that by how much longer it takes to charge compared to filling up with gas. 

Well, maybe not that bad. Many gas stations are empty and the great majority of EV owners spend a couple minutes every night plugging their car in at home. Tesla has a supercharging station near me and I have never seen it even 50% full. I live in the bay area CA where electric cars are abundant. In 2018 13% of new car registrations were for electric cars (including plug in hybrids ) in the SF bay area. That is up from 7% in 2017. Public charging stations increased 39% and workplace charging stations increased over 50%. 

For long trips much of the west has enough superchargers to go to between any major metropolitan areas but charging does take a long time. Some argue that one would normally want to take a break from driving anyway but who wants to take a break at a charging station for 20-70 min? Not everyone is into fast food joints. 

I find fault with the idea that electric cars are less to maintain due to not having all the moving parts of an ICE. I have owned several cars, most of them 100-200K miles and I have never had to have any repairs to the engines. AC yes, brakes yes, electrical yes. The only engine related problems I have ever had was fluid hoses for heating and cooling which electric cars do not have. Oh wait, one time I did let an old VW run out of oil. Other than replacing spark plugs my experience is that gas engines can be expected to go 200K or more with minimal maintenance without any breakdowns. 

Lithium batteries can be recycled, and the lithium harvested. They can also be reconditioned. It makes no sense to junk thousands of dollars of a reusable battery bank. 


I don’t know where you got your math from but everything I have read about home charging is that it takes a minimum of 5 hours for a full charge.

Darn it! I forgot the time EV owners have to spend watching their car charge for the better part of the night when they could be sleeping.

In winter the range of an EV declines by 25% because more accessories such as Heater and seat warmer are used which necessitates shutting off some accessories.

+1

As for charging stations only place I have seen them is on the NJ turnpike at some rest stops.

The reason there are a lot of electric cars in SF is because 50% of all electric cars in the US are sold in CA and OR. Electric cars are less than 1/3 of one percent of all cars on the road in the US. 

This is true. and 10 years ago there were even less. Maybe 10 years from now there will be more, or maybe they will die out. There has been little progress in civilizations that didn't have hurdles to overcome, and the innovation to do so, as well as hoards of naysayers with infinite reasons as to why things can't change. 

And where is all the lithium to make millions of electric cars going to come from? Most expensive item in an ev is the battery which costs about $7k which boosts price of ev above average price of gas cars that get 30mpg which is all the middle class can afford.

I think it is more like $12K for a sizable battery pack capable of any range.

I had a deposit on on a model 3 but changed my mind when it came time to take delivery. Instead of buying a $50K model 3 I bought a $23K VW golf which cost less per mile for fuel with our $3.50/gal gas and $.29/KWH electric cost. I would have paid a little more for the increased performance but not over 2X the $ for the 3. And as you say the infrastructure for charging isn't yet up to speed for someone  like me who takes occasional long trips and only owns 1 car. 

GM sells the volt at a loss because it improves the CAFE mileage which allows GM to sell more trucks and SUVs at a higher profit..

Not sure where the Li will come from or if it ever will meet demand, or if Li batteries will be the go to power storage source for the future. It does seem there is plenty of momentum for electric cars despite their their drawbacks. There is a place for them but probably not a total replacement for ICE cars. I don't think anyone sees them as ever being the only wheels on the road. I give them equal share with motorcycles, for pretty much the same reasons. 

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