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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?


@rumples wrote:

Perhaps even the employees at the Dollar Tree are unsafe and they know it.  Is the bathroom clean?  Does it have ventilation or are they in a tiny room, without soap or ventilation? 


Part of phase one reopening would include a cleaning focus on those items you mention.  Some won't feel safe under any circumstances, but they would be outliers.

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?

@GLI2019 

Here is what I know about Michigan:

1. It is a state in the United States

2. It is bound by the provisions of the US Constitution, including the Privileges and Immunities Clause of Article IV of the U.S. Constitution, the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Shut downs can certainly be necessary, but must be backed by 'overwhelming evidence' that it is a necessary and prudent act to ensure public safety. So unless you think Michigaers are somehow different than other Americans residing in other states, the unilateral extension of the lock-down has no merit and is simply a political power grab, particularly when done after the state legislature would not approve it.

So if you wish to 'give this a rest', go for it. Just roll over and do what you're told. I will not!

BruceM

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?


@BruceM wrote:

@GLI2019 

Here is what I know about Michigan:

1. It is a state in the United States

2. It is bound by the provisions of the US Constitution, including the Privileges and Immunities Clause of Article IV of the U.S. Constitution, the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment and the Privileges or Immunities Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.

Shut downs can certainly be necessary, but must be backed by 'overwhelming evidence' that it is a necessary and prudent act to ensure public safety. So unless you think Michigaers are somehow different than other Americans residing in other states, the unilateral extension of the lock-down has no merit and is simply a political power grab, particularly when done after the state legislature would not approve it.

So if you wish to 'give this a rest', go for it. Just roll over and do what you're told. I will not!

BruceM


And to continue, Bruce, Michigan also has something called courts and judges where people who won't "just roll over" like yourself can take their case and have a judge, and then the court of appeals and finally the Michigan Supreme Court.  You know nothing about Michigan but the lockdown is a political power grab?  What benefit does the Governor get from the shutdown?

 

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"What benefit does the Governor get from the shutdown?"

Probably the same benefit other deep blue states get for their aggressive lock-down policies.....

Support of labor unions along with financial campaign support

Solidify her anti-Trump position primarily to appeal to the 18-25 year old group the left is working very hard to recruit from Bernie

And for her, possible consideration for Biden VP

Her actions have very little to do with public safety

And whatever state laws, courts and judges may be, they must all comply with the Articles of the US Constition. The 40 or so lawsuits directed against unilateral individual acts in depriving individual liberty will certainly speak to this. We don't know what the collective outcome of these will be, but I'd say it will be important.

BruceM

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?

You do realize Michigan has the 7th highest number of cases and deaths  in the entire country? That may have a teeny tiny bit to do with it?  Just a guess.....  add:  Overwhelming evidence??? 7th out of 50 isn't good enough... Would the top 3 be ok? 

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?


@BruceM wrote:

"What benefit does the Governor get from the shutdown?"

Probably the same benefit other deep blue states get for their aggressive lock-down policies.....

Support of labor unions along with financial campaign support

Solidify her anti-Trump position primarily to appeal to the 18-25 year old group the left is working very hard to recruit from Bernie

And for her, possible consideration for Biden VP

Her actions have very little to do with public safety

And whatever state laws, courts and judges may be, they must all comply with the Articles of the US Constition. The 40 or so lawsuits directed against unilateral individual acts in depriving individual liberty will certainly speak to this. We don't know what the collective outcome of these will be, but I'd say it will be important.

BruceM


I have notified the moderator about this political post.  No shirt, no, shoes, no politics.

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?


@bilperk wrote:

@BruceM wrote:

"What benefit does the Governor get from the shutdown?"

Probably the same benefit other deep blue states get for their aggressive lock-down policies.....

Support of labor unions along with financial campaign support

Solidify her anti-Trump position primarily to appeal to the 18-25 year old group the left is working very hard to recruit from Bernie

And for her, possible consideration for Biden VP

Her actions have very little to do with public safety

And whatever state laws, courts and judges may be, they must all comply with the Articles of the US Constition. The 40 or so lawsuits directed against unilateral individual acts in depriving individual liberty will certainly speak to this. We don't know what the collective outcome of these will be, but I'd say it will be important.

BruceM


I have notified the moderator about this political post.  No shirt, no, shoes, no politics.


Good for you, Bill.  No soup either.  About time somebody got Hootz under control!

At $600/week fed unemployment benefits, that obviously breaks down to $15/hour, the federal minimum wage that dems have been pushing now for years.

That's in addition to what the state pays.  I don't know for sure, one way or another, how much of the state money comes from the feds, but I think at least some of it comes from employer/employee taxes.  At any rate, the amount you get from the state depends upon the state.  Florida is notoriously a low paying state, at least compared to Pennsylvania.

In general, it is an acceptable excuse for a worker to refuse to come to work, thereby collecting unemployment benefits, because of a fear of the virus.  Even one called back to work.  Otherwise, an essential worker would be at risk ifn he/she continued to work.  And I can tell you that a company would be foolish to 'let the state know' that a laid off worker refused a call to return to work.  Ifn that would ever happen, the worker and the company go to arbitration first and, ifn not settled, they go to Administration Court, not your regular judge/jury civil/criminal court.

With experience on both sides of that table, I can tell you that, in any arbitration involving labor laws, the worker is presumed to be the good guy.  Corporations have the cadre of lawyers sitting on their side of the table, with full knowledge of the labor laws and, whenever things get beyond the initial settlement/arbitration conference, and are set up to go to court, the corporate lawyers inform their clients that the cost of their legal services are far higher than simply paying higher unemployment insurance rates for a few years, which can be deducted from their taxes!  After all, there are still depositions to be taken and other court preparations, which take time and money.

Throwing a laid off worker off the books ifn he/she refuses to go back to work when called sounds nice, on paper, on the airwaves, theoretically, politically.  In reality, in these times of 20-25% unemployment, and ALL state agencies running balls out, twill never happen, at least IMO, H as always!  8-)

ElLobo, de la casa de la toro caca grande
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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?

 

@ElLobowrote:

Good for you, Bill. No soup either. About time somebody got Hootz under control!

 

Now don't pick on your neighbor. He does not discuss politics!

Your friend,

Hootz

 

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@Hootz wrote:

 

@ElLobowrote:

Good for you, Bill. No soup either. About time somebody got Hootz under control!

 

Now don't pick on your neighbor. He does not discuss politics!

Your friend,

Hootz

 


I know.

ElLobo, de la casa de la toro caca grande
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HD has become a cluster fxck for shopping. The employees do not social distance with each other and with customers. And no one cares. Maybe most of their business $$ is done with contractors but there is a ton of people there since they are not at work. I am in a mostly rural area with only 100 active cases and no deaths so people are pretty lax. The worst are kids. The ignorance all around is astounding. If everyone decided protecting others over themselves this entire social distancing would work well.


@Intruder wrote:

@Gary1952 wrote:

Costco is one of the businesses Doing it correctly. EVERYONE. Must wear a mask. Even customers to go in. However Home Depot is not doing it correctly. I was told via a corporate phone call that they cannot tell employees to wear a mask where it is not mandated by authorities. 


@gilvkona wrote:

Here's an interesting article of what the risks are and how you can manage them.  Being retired, I can avoid things.   This article tells you choir singing, church, eating at restaurants, going to funerals, etc. are risky even if one person has the virus.  It all has to do with duration of exposure.  I pity the poor clerks working at Costco, Target, Walmart, etc.  

 

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

 

So no matter what the government allows, I am going to use this article as a guideline until there is a vaccine or proven treatment. 

We have 2 sets of friends who we have "seen" a couple times.  One time we ate dinner outside with us each sitting as far away as possible.  The other time we sat outside until it got cool.  We wore masks until we ate.  I know it's a risk but we all had been FaceTiming, know each others' habits, so it is a calculated risk. 


 


Most HD business comes from contractors who call large orders  into the local HD where the order is assembled and packaged for pick up in the parking lot by HD employees. Contractor pays in advance and picks up the materials without coming within 6  feet of HD employee. Under OSHA rules employer is required to determine workplace hazards for employees. HD can follow state laws requiring when masks must be worn by employees.


 

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?

@Gary1952  wrote:

HD has become a cluster fxck for shopping. The employees do not social distance with each other and with customers. And no one cares.

Yep.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/bizarre-paint-battle-between-4-210000797.html

 

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@ElLobo wrote:

At $600/week fed unemployment benefits, that obviously breaks down to $15/hour, the federal minimum wage that dems have been pushing now for years.

My understanding is that it was a figure that would intended to make everyone within a certain wage range "whole".  Many didn't get whole (higher earners) and many got "wholier"

That's in addition to what the state pays.  I don't know for sure, one way or another, how much of the state money comes from the feds, but I think at least some of it comes from employer/employee taxes.  At any rate, the amount you get from the state depends upon the state.  Florida is notoriously a low paying state, at least compared to Pennsylvania.

Employers pay two taxes; one to the Federal gov to manage the program, and one to their state.    I do not believe any money comes back from the Fed directly in normal times.  The money paid to employees comes from the State fund.  Only employers pay the tax, at least directly, but of course such tax would have the effect of reducing employee wages.

In general, it is an acceptable excuse for a worker to refuse to come to work, thereby collecting unemployment benefits, because of a fear of the virus.  Even one called back to work.  Otherwise, an essential worker would be at risk ifn he/she continued to work.  And I can tell you that a company would be foolish to 'let the state know' that a laid off worker refused a call to return to work.  Ifn that would ever happen, the worker and the company go to arbitration first and, ifn not settled, they go to Administration Court, not your regular judge/jury civil/criminal court.

Do you have an actual cite or rule for this?  I do not believe it is true IF the call back is happening within that State and Federal virus guidelines.  Why would an employer be foolish?  Every emplyee that gets UI may cause the employer's premium go up.  The longer the employee draws, the more it goes up.  This is how all insurance works.  The court process tends to favor the employer, since it is up to the employee to show that his case falls within the actions that he can claim unemployment payments, mainly that he was laid off, or the business went out of business.

With experience on both sides of that table, I can tell you that, in any arbitration involving labor laws, the worker is presumed to be the good guy.  Corporations have the cadre of lawyers sitting on their side of the table, with full knowledge of the labor laws and, whenever things get beyond the initial settlement/arbitration conference, and are set up to go to court, the corporate lawyers inform their clients that the cost of their legal services are far higher than simply paying higher unemployment insurance rates for a few years, which can be deducted from their taxes!  After all, there are still depositions to be taken and other court preparations, which take time and money.

Labor laws, perhaps.  But unemployment insurance is fairly straight up.  If you quit; no get.  If you are fired; no get.  If you are laid off; get.  If the business folds; get.  And while there may be some other infrequent situations, they would be rare.  Your scenario above forgets some things RE: unemployment payments.  When the employer calls wolf, the payments stop.  Your employee also has to hire a lawyer if he hope to win, but he has no money to even eat, so that isn't likely.  Then that group of lawyers on the other side begin to do everything they can to stall the process.  Meanwhile, the employee will normally be forced to get another job just to live.  And so he is now not due unemployment compensation.

Throwing a laid off worker off the books ifn he/she refuses to go back to work when called sounds nice, on paper, on the airwaves, theoretically, politically.  In reality, in these times of 20-25% unemployment, and ALL state agencies running balls out, twill never happen, at least IMO, H as always!  8-)

I know several people here that have been unemployeed since April and still haven't gotten paid.  The systems are so overloaded, even applications can't be processed.  One friend was off for two months.  She finally got a check and was called back two days later.


 

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?

She is owed by the local unemployment office if she was eligible. Period.


@bilperk wrote:

@ElLobo wrote:

At $600/week fed unemployment benefits, that obviously breaks down to $15/hour, the federal minimum wage that dems have been pushing now for years.

My understanding is that it was a figure that would intended to make everyone within a certain wage range "whole".  Many didn't get whole (higher earners) and many got "wholier"

That's in addition to what the state pays.  I don't know for sure, one way or another, how much of the state money comes from the feds, but I think at least some of it comes from employer/employee taxes.  At any rate, the amount you get from the state depends upon the state.  Florida is notoriously a low paying state, at least compared to Pennsylvania.

Employers pay two taxes; one to the Federal gov to manage the program, and one to their state.    I do not believe any money comes back from the Fed directly in normal times.  The money paid to employees comes from the State fund.  Only employers pay the tax, at least directly, but of course such tax would have the effect of reducing employee wages.

In general, it is an acceptable excuse for a worker to refuse to come to work, thereby collecting unemployment benefits, because of a fear of the virus.  Even one called back to work.  Otherwise, an essential worker would be at risk ifn he/she continued to work.  And I can tell you that a company would be foolish to 'let the state know' that a laid off worker refused a call to return to work.  Ifn that would ever happen, the worker and the company go to arbitration first and, ifn not settled, they go to Administration Court, not your regular judge/jury civil/criminal court.

Do you have an actual cite or rule for this?  I do not believe it is true IF the call back is happening within that State and Federal virus guidelines.  Why would an employer be foolish?  Every emplyee that gets UI may cause the employer's premium go up.  The longer the employee draws, the more it goes up.  This is how all insurance works.  The court process tends to favor the employer, since it is up to the employee to show that his case falls within the actions that he can claim unemployment payments, mainly that he was laid off, or the business went out of business.

With experience on both sides of that table, I can tell you that, in any arbitration involving labor laws, the worker is presumed to be the good guy.  Corporations have the cadre of lawyers sitting on their side of the table, with full knowledge of the labor laws and, whenever things get beyond the initial settlement/arbitration conference, and are set up to go to court, the corporate lawyers inform their clients that the cost of their legal services are far higher than simply paying higher unemployment insurance rates for a few years, which can be deducted from their taxes!  After all, there are still depositions to be taken and other court preparations, which take time and money.

Labor laws, perhaps.  But unemployment insurance is fairly straight up.  If you quit; no get.  If you are fired; no get.  If you are laid off; get.  If the business folds; get.  And while there may be some other infrequent situations, they would be rare.  Your scenario above forgets some things RE: unemployment payments.  When the employer calls wolf, the payments stop.  Your employee also has to hire a lawyer if he hope to win, but he has no money to even eat, so that isn't likely.  Then that group of lawyers on the other side begin to do everything they can to stall the process.  Meanwhile, the employee will normally be forced to get another job just to live.  And so he is now not due unemployment compensation.

Throwing a laid off worker off the books ifn he/she refuses to go back to work when called sounds nice, on paper, on the airwaves, theoretically, politically.  In reality, in these times of 20-25% unemployment, and ALL state agencies running balls out, twill never happen, at least IMO, H as always!  8-)

I know several people here that have been unemployeed since April and still haven't gotten paid.  The systems are so overloaded, even applications can't be processed.  One friend was off for two months.  She finally got a check and was called back two days later.


 


 

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"She is owed by the local unemployment office if she was eligible. Period."

The problem, here in Florida at least, is that the laid off workers couldn't even complete their application for the benefits.  The online system itself was overloaded, not working well (or not at all) regardless of when they tried to apply.  So by the time they did complete the application, they had lost weeks of benefits.  On the other hand, Florida did make the correct payments, once the cash started flowing, at least in the 4 cases here that I know about personally.

@bilperk 

In general, it's just conjecture at this point.  We actually won't know for sure (whether an employer will turn in a laid off worker ifn they refuse to return to work) until it actually happens, or, if they don't, ifn it is a big, or minor, problem.

My first hand experience was as a member of the Board of Directors of a small local utility (a water district), which had 3 full time, and 1 part time, employees.  The 'manager' of the group injured himself while operating a piece of machinery, which was part of his full time job.  After recovery, and getting a return to work OK, he was still restricted from operating the machinery, so he wanted a full time salary for what was part time (management) work.

The Board, however, offered him a part time job, which included no machinery work, and elevated the part time employee a full time position, which was all machinery.  SO, 3.5 jobs (3 labor, 0.5 office), as we were and always will be.

The guy refused and took it to the labor department.  Although we were fully compliant with the law, after arbitration, our lawyer so advised against fighting it for exactly the same reasons that I stated.  So we took him back, at full salary, and used the part time guy as needed, as before.

Three months back, he started staying home from work, which had been 'tolerated' before, but not anymore.  We documented everything, and after warnings, he asked to be laid off, so he could collect benefits, of all things!  Per counsel, again, we refused and fired him.  He then went through the unemployment benefits system, we appealed, and we won.

I'm not saying things are different this time, or that's the way it always works.  It's just my personal experience.

ElLobo, de la casa de la toro caca grande
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@Gary1952 wrote:

HD has become a cluster fxck for shopping. The employees do not social distance with each other and with customers. And no one cares. Maybe most of their business $$ is done with contractors but there is a ton of people there since they are not at work. I am in a mostly rural area with only 100 active cases and no deaths so people are pretty lax. The worst are kids. The ignorance all around is astounding. If everyone decided protecting others over themselves this entire social distancing would work well.


@Intruder wrote:

@Gary1952 wrote:

Costco is one of the businesses Doing it correctly. EVERYONE. Must wear a mask. Even customers to go in. However Home Depot is not doing it correctly. I was told via a corporate phone call that they cannot tell employees to wear a mask where it is not mandated by authorities. 


@gilvkona wrote:

Here's an interesting article of what the risks are and how you can manage them.  Being retired, I can avoid things.   This article tells you choir singing, church, eating at restaurants, going to funerals, etc. are risky even if one person has the virus.  It all has to do with duration of exposure.  I pity the poor clerks working at Costco, Target, Walmart, etc.  

 

https://www.erinbromage.com/post/the-risks-know-them-avoid-them

 

So no matter what the government allows, I am going to use this article as a guideline until there is a vaccine or proven treatment. 

We have 2 sets of friends who we have "seen" a couple times.  One time we ate dinner outside with us each sitting as far away as possible.  The other time we sat outside until it got cool.  We wore masks until we ate.  I know it's a risk but we all had been FaceTiming, know each others' habits, so it is a calculated risk. 


 


Most HD business comes from contractors who call large orders  into the local HD where the order is assembled and packaged for pick up in the parking lot by HD employees. Contractor pays in advance and picks up the materials without coming within 6  feet of HD employee. Under OSHA rules employer is required to determine workplace hazards for employees. HD can follow state laws requiring when masks must be worn by employees.


 


If you are not happy with HD go to Lowe’s.

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Re: When — and How — Should the U.S. Economy Reopen?

It seems to be store dependent.  Here, Lowes is a mess and HD is cleaner.  Lowes policy now is for all employees to wear masks, I don't know about HD, but at Lowes they seem to think that having them dangle around their neck is preventative.  On the other hand, at Lowes, the self check out lets you just hold the object and scan it; at HD you have to hold a scanner, but just put a plastic bag over your hand to hold it. 

The only hardware type store I actually walked out of due to how filthy it was is a Southern States Co-op store.  Its a regional farm supply cooperative.  There was absolutely no pretense of keeping the place clean.  For others, its a matter of training and when I speak to the managers, they are appreciative.  The last thing they want is a video on social media or a reporter showing up - which has happened in one report. 

The cleanest place I go to is my local smallish Walmart.  At self check out, the clerk wipes down every machine after every customer - I know - I am slow at self checkout and observe...it takes me about 10 minutes to scan $60+ in goods.  And they do it every time I am there.  Today, like in previous visits, every employee was wearing a mask and was covering their nostrils and mouth. 

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Where we live, both Kroger and Whole Foods have been extremely conscientious for both customers and employees. 

Though members of Costco, we are not comfortable with the large crowds and therefore no longer shop there.

We did buy garden supplies from Menards, but it was entirely outdoors and everyone wore masks.

Bob 

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@royal4 wrote:

You do realize Michigan has the 7th highest number of cases and deaths  in the entire country? That may have a teeny tiny bit to do with it?  Just a guess.....  add:  Overwhelming evidence??? 7th out of 50 isn't good enough... Would the top 3 be ok? 


The '7th highest' by itself certainly sounds ominous, as I'm sure the governor would like it to sound. But what say let's dig down into the numbers just a bit....

The official numbers provided by the CDC lag the Provisional numbers, as it takes the CDC a week or two to validate the numbers reported to it from the states via the National Vital Statistics System, to ensure accuracy and remove duplicate or misreported numbers.

The provisional data I received from corona help which I like to use as its easier to download their data on states/counties into Excel, but they do match the provisional numbers shown on the CDC site. The official numbers which include deaths from all other causes, I took from the CDC web site

Michigan covid19.jpg

What this data makes clear is the infections and deaths are focused almost entirely on the largest counties, with minimal infections and deaths from COVID-19 in most of the state's counties. Certainly, the state's officials should be focused on what is causing such a high percent of infection/death in these populace counties, to include lockdowns, if other data (age, cluster geography, diagnosed pre-existing condition) warrant it. But it would certainly make logical sense to be opening up the rest of the state to business so as to ensure the rest of the state can make a living, save their small family business and have access to other than critical health care services, wouldn't it?

BruceM

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@BruceM said: "What this data makes clear is the infections and deaths are focused almost entirely on the largest counties, with minimal infections and deaths from COVID-19 in most of the state's counties. Certainly, the state's officials should be focused on what is causing such a high percent of infection/death in these populace counties, to include lockdowns, if other data (age, cluster geography, diagnosed pre-existing condition) warrant it. But it would certainly make logical sense to be opening up the rest of the state to business so as to ensure the rest of the state can make a living, save their small family business and have access to other than critical health care services, wouldn't it?"

 

Totally agree with this statement.  I have friends who live in rural counties of CA.  They have had some cases and deaths.  The numbers and percentages are low.  But I can't see these small towns remaining closed now.  Also, there is much open space up there.  And my friends, who are in vulnerable age group, wear masks when they go out.  In CA, the governor is letting each county submit a plan for opening which is more accelerated than the more populous areas.  That all makes sense to me.

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@BruceM wrote:

@royal4 wrote:

You do realize Michigan has the 7th highest number of cases and deaths  in the entire country? That may have a teeny tiny bit to do with it?  Just a guess.....  add:  Overwhelming evidence??? 7th out of 50 isn't good enough... Would the top 3 be ok? 


The '7th highest' by itself certainly sounds ominous, as I'm sure the governor would like it to sound. But what say let's dig down into the numbers just a bit....

The official numbers provided by the CDC lag the Provisional numbers, as it takes the CDC a week or two to validate the numbers reported to it from the states via the National Vital Statistics System, to ensure accuracy and remove duplicate or misreported numbers.

The provisional data I received from corona help which I like to use as its easier to download their data on states/counties into Excel, but they do match the provisional numbers shown on the CDC site. The official numbers which include deaths from all other causes, I took from the CDC web site

Michigan covid19.jpg

What this data makes clear is the infections and deaths are focused almost entirely on the largest counties, with minimal infections and deaths from COVID-19 in most of the state's counties. Certainly, the state's officials should be focused on what is causing such a high percent of infection/death in these populace counties, to include lockdowns, if other data (age, cluster geography, diagnosed pre-existing condition) warrant it. But it would certainly make logical sense to be opening up the rest of the state to business so as to ensure the rest of the state can make a living, save their small family business and have access to other than critical health care services, wouldn't it?

BruceM


Silly me, I forgot no one drives anymore.  No one would drive from a closed high infection rate location to an open low infection rate location  for a beer, would they?   I'm actually for opening everything up and let people go where they wish. I'm a  believer in Darwin's theory/awards.

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