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Frequent Contributor

Thoughts on the virus...

I think if there are lessons to be learned in all this, it's that there are a whole lot of people in the US who use their 'freedom' to do stupid stuff, and, in terms of economics, nothing is 'simple'.  Given that, it falls to government(s) to act responsibly, quickly, and be held accountable for their actions/results. 

Now it may be that there was simply NO way to keep the virus OUT of the US.  Maybe we're too much of a travel hub to just shut down inflows.  And, like it or not, MAYBE there is a point at which health concerns are less important than economic concerns (though one doesn't want to happen to be at risk then).  MAYBE a certain percentage of deaths is 'acceptable' in the trade off.

MAYBE, in our unique situation, the NATIONAL responses had to be tempered by STATE rights/prerogatives.  Maybe that led to some problems as well.  My take is that the Federal level overstepped in some areas, and failed to take the reins in others.  Inconsistency and a clear lack of guidance became problematic.  At the same time, a "one size fits all" approach, while simple, can have outcomes which are, frankly, predictably dumb! Left to their own devices, state governments did not have to consider how their LOCAL decisions affected NATIONAL conditions.

It's going to be interesting to see how this all shakes out.  For me, at present, NY has looked pretty good.  Obviously, things to legitimately criticize, but bad decisions are probably unavoidable when you MAKE decisions.  We all make mistakes, after all, and Cuomo was no exception.

Now before anyone makes the claim that this is a political post, and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a life-long Republican voter, who had no one to vote FOR in the last election, and for whom that may very well be the case in the NEXT one.  The only question is whether or not there is someone to vote AGAINST.  Regardless, I hold responsible WHOEVER is in charge; at all levels.  All the evidence is not in as yet, but there appears to be some states which have NOT done as well as NY, so far as getting things in hand.  Oh, and, btw, there are a LOT of Republican voters in NY; roughly between 35-40%, and mostly residing OUTSIDE the major cities.

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

At the risk of wearying Ryan with my schtick, I will say that I was surprised how 325 million people with Internet and TV service suddenly became insistent, authoritative and expert epidemiologists and yet managed to completely bollix up the response. I was NOT surprised in the slightest to see that a very large subset of Americans, as a herd, are the easily the most selfish (LIBERTY!) on the planet. You get what you pay for.

Release the Kraken!

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

I do not see politics here at all (right now). So who was supposed to do what? Who in charge do you want to decide or who gets to decide who decides what to do? I thought we did what was decided? Don't we decide every 4 years or so? Remember one of the best authorities (Fauci) was not so much in favor of closing the country to China. Of course everyone gets to change their mind as data is gathered.

I disagree that there was "a lack of guidance". The 15 Days to Slow the Spread was very clear. It was extended I believe to 30 days. Does every person in this country need to be lead by the nose to 6' distances, wash your hands and don't touch your face? I  break with many on my side of the aisle (R) on masks. I wear one and am a bit of a mask terrorist. It pisses me off when people wear one under their nose or not one at all.

Remember this is a country of 50 united states. States have rights in this matter. Not quite like Germany or France. Naturally a national emergency could have been declared but was it really? The issue was not so much what was right to do but will people do what's right. 

Any death close to home is terrible. But we are around .05% of the US population that has died from COVID. Every year .84% of the population turns over on average. It is the way it is. It is called nature whether cancer, heart disease or whatever is the cause. Good grief, why does anyone need to be told what to do? You take care of yourself.


@racqueteer wrote:

I think if there are lessons to be learned in all this, it's that there are a whole lot of people in the US who use their 'freedom' to do stupid stuff, and, in terms of economics, nothing is 'simple'.  Given that, it falls to government(s) to act responsibly, quickly, and be held accountable for their actions/results. 

Now it may be that there was simply NO way to keep the virus OUT of the US.  Maybe we're too much of a travel hub to just shut down inflows.  And, like it or not, MAYBE there is a point at which health concerns are less important than economic concerns (though one doesn't want to happen to be at risk then).  MAYBE a certain percentage of deaths is 'acceptable' in the trade off.

MAYBE, in our unique situation, the NATIONAL responses had to be tempered by STATE rights/prerogatives.  Maybe that led to some problems as well.  My take is that the Federal level overstepped in some areas, and failed to take the reins in others.  Inconsistency and a clear lack of guidance became problematic.  At the same time, a "one size fits all" approach, while simple, can have outcomes which are, frankly, predictably dumb! Left to their own devices, state governments did not have to consider how their LOCAL decisions affected NATIONAL conditions.

It's going to be interesting to see how this all shakes out.  For me, at present, NY has looked pretty good.  Obviously, things to legitimately criticize, but bad decisions are probably unavoidable when you MAKE decisions.  We all make mistakes, after all, and Cuomo was no exception.

Now before anyone makes the claim that this is a political post, and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a life-long Republican voter, who had no one to vote FOR in the last election, and for whom that may very well be the case in the NEXT one.  The only question is whether or not there is someone to vote AGAINST.  Regardless, I hold responsible WHOEVER is in charge; at all levels.  All the evidence is not in as yet, but there appears to be some states which have NOT done as well as NY, so far as getting things in hand.  Oh, and, btw, there are a LOT of Republican voters in NY; roughly between 35-40%, and mostly residing OUTSIDE the major cities.


 

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...


@racqueteer 

 

         Ha. Ha. No one alive has any experience handling anything like this but the whole world does now. Next time hopefully will be better.

          Take a look at some plague pics. Even some of those people knew what to do. It’s the culture of each country. In my opinion ours is terrible. I got in a discussion with my educated son and he basically thinks science is an opinion. God bless that generation as they take over the world. 
           
           * I wear a plague mask at times to scare the bleep out of people. Maybe the people who love making laws will make it permanent in public from October-March for flu season. 


 

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...


@Gary1952 wrote:

So who was supposed to do what? Who in charge do you want to decide or who gets to decide who decides what to do? I thought we did what was decided? Don't we decide every 4 years or so? Remember one of the best authorities (Fauci) was not so much in favor of closing the country to China. Of course everyone gets to change their mind as data is gathered.


At all points, I would suggest that decisions be made on the basis of health officials' recommendations in such an instance.  I'm not entirely convinced that this was the case at all times.  There came a point where those opinions were (largely) ignored.  Again, MAYBE that was inevitable, but those choosing to DO so have to expect to be held accountable.  Btw, closing to China, at that point, wasn't going to do the job.  There were additional hotspots by then.  China was the LEAST of it.


@Gary1952 wrote:

I disagree that there was "a lack of guidance". The 15 Days to Slow the Spread was very clear. It was extended I believe to 30 days. Does every person in this country need to be lead by the nose to 6' distances, wash your hands and don't touch your face? I  break with many on my side of the aisle (R) on masks. I wear one and am a bit of a mask terrorist. It pisses me off when people wear one under their nose or not one at all.


This was clearly a FEDERAL problem; it wasn't going to STAY within, for example, NY.  Maybe states rights made it impossible, but we needed more of a uniform response; perhaps when levels reached a certain threshold. 

As a former teacher, I suggest that MOST people DO have to be led by the nose.  Masks?  The key is that they are not for YOU, they are for the benefit of OTHERS.  I would suggest that folks get over themselves and take a hit for the TEAM!  If you're 20, get the virus, and AVOID the complicating aftereffects, well,  good on ya, as my old Aussie buddies would have said, but do you REALLY want to be responsible for actively infecting an 70-80ish grandparent and contributing to their untimely death?  Kind of selfish, don't you think (rhetorical)?


@Gary1952 wrote:

Remember this is a country of 50 united states. States have rights in this matter. Not quite like Germany or France. Naturally a national emergency could have been declared but was it really? The issue was not so much what was right to do but will people do what's right. 

Any death close to home is terrible. But we are around .05% of the US population that has died from COVID. Every year .84% of the population turns over on average. It is the way it is. It is called nature whether cancer, heart disease or whatever is the cause. Good grief, why does anyone need to be told what to do? You take care of yourself.



I think that at some point, a national emergency was indicated.  And outright deaths don't adequately cover the consequences of contracting the illness.  I was told by a friend of HIS friend's experience.  A 240 Lb, 6'4" former NFL player (lower tier) spent something like 70 days in the hospital and lost 80+ pounds in the ordeal.  Refused to go on a ventilator since so few seem to come OFF once ON.  Anecdotal, of course, but who KNOWS what organ problems result from an ordeal like that?  He's a 'SUCCESS' story!?!  Again, I personally give good marks to Cuomo and NYC.  I applaud the various universities who are taking on their responsibilities by attempting to implement remote studies at REAL cost to their bottom line.  Ditto for public schools (though I have NO idea how that can be done effectively - The whole hand-holding thing writ large).  I'm scared as HECK at the thought of spending the Winter in Florida (as I was at returning to 60 miles north of NYC for the PREVIOUS 9 months).  I have NO confidence that we have things in hand; at ALL!  We have TONS of people making stupid choices with little or no authoritative response.  THAT'S a failure of leadership at several levels.  We all may never agree on this or that detail of political view, but I have no doubt that there will be politicians whose word we have come to trust and who inspire a feeling of competence - and then there are the others...

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

I stand on the side of the Constitution.  But, what else would you expect me to say since I'm retired Air Force and my oath was "To protect the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic."

Whether people believe we should have a stronger central government or a weaker one, it doesn't matter.  The Constitution is a compromise.  Actually it is many compromises.  And, there is a process for changing it.  It basically takes 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states to pass an amendment. (A constitutional convention has never been used.  It takes 2/3 of the states to call for a convention. That's 34 states.  A significant number of states have called for one.  Wisconsin was doing so earlier this year.)

http://www.sweetliberty.org/standing_calls.htm

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/will-there-be-a-new-constitutional-convention/

https://apnews.com/62d929c84b4e8737aff1176274285ea9

Until it is changed, like it or not, the federal government has been delegated certain powers, the states have other powers, and the people have rights.  Depending on one's point of view this could be considered a weakness or a strength.  I considered it a strength.  But then again I enjoy being free and I volunteered to fight and die if necessary for people to have those freedoms.

150,000 deaths is bad.  So are 1,118,000 deaths in auto accidents in 2018. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year)  No one is calling for a complete ban of cars so obviously some deaths are acceptable losses.

People seem to forget the shut down wasn't to save lives.  It was to prevent the hospitals from being completely overwhelmed.  Unfortunately, it has become a political issue and all common sense has gone out the window.

 

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

Here is a news from my area of Tenn. All the football coaches (Tenn. Tech. and high Schools in the area) are excited about playing football this fall because the Gov. has allowed them. But, one thing I know is that 18 players of Tenn. Tech. tested positive for COVID. So, aside from the excitment, how is this team going to play? Like the Flrodia Marlins?

Give me a break.

 

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

Americans DON'T trust their government. It's that simple.

Costa Ricans trust our government more. A lot more vs Americans. 

CR is doing well re: Covid-19 DESPITE our super infected neighbors to the north and south. Nicaragua and Panama are a mess. And it's too easy to sneak a cross our borders.

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

"Constitutional rights" is just a hogwash fig leaf (Is that a real thing, Pud?) for pure, unadulterated screw-you! selfishness. Nothing less. 

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

Again with another thread on it? 

Ok...:)  

 

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

You either get it, or you don't. If you don't get it, you probably will get it.

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...


@51hh wrote:

Again, not even whether it is political or not; but haven't we exhausted all of our individual expertise, data, opinions, concerns, and debates already with so many threads?  

Just me. :)


Yes, and no. No, because there is always a new data and info that we did not have before and did not know before. So, as the new data and news develops, your thought process also changes. So, there is nothing wrong with this. Here is an example. Tennessee reached a landmark numbers today.

Total number of cases exceeded 100 k and the total number of people who died also exceeded

1 k(1020) today. Our county number also went up by two deaths today. Immediately, my wife and I talked about this because we are in Chicago today. Life goes on.

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...


@pudman wrote:

"Constitutional rights" is just a hogwash fig leaf (Is that a real thing, Pud?) for pure, unadulterated screw-you! selfishness. Nothing less. 


I'm sorry you think so. I do not think freedom of religion, being secure in our houses and free of unreasonable searches and seizures, etc is hogwash. You are free to try to change it.  It just takes 2/3 of Congress and 3/4 of the states.

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

Mustang,

As a retired prof I know a fair amount about the Constitution including the origins of this country in protest, on which I did a book (now out of print).

The Constitution, as you surely must know, is not frozen in time. It is a document subject to continuing interpretation, which is the the function of the sitting Supreme Court.

There is nothing in the Constitution that rules out stupidity.

Bob

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

Let’s see, 150,000 dead, millions have tested positive, and the virus is raging out of control.  The nation is experiencing a national public health emergency. This isn’t political, COVID won’t go away after the election.  Until we have effective vaccines and more testing and tracing, we all need to follow CDC and NIH guidance.  

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

"Hell is truth seen too late."

Bob

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...


@GLI2019 wrote:

Mustang,

As a retired prof I know a fair amount about the Constitution including the origins of this country in protest, on which I did a book (now out of print).

The Constitution, as you surely must know, is not frozen in time. It is a document subject to continuing interpretation, which is the the function of the sitting Supreme Court.

There is nothing in the Constitution that rules out stupidity.

Bob


Of course I'm aware of that.  I'm sure you know more about this than I do but that is part of the checks and balances.  Since the Constitution doesn't establish the number of Supreme Court justices there have been administrations attempt to pack the court to get the decisions they want.  The ultimate check is a constitutional convention.  It takes the decision completely out of the hands of the federal government.  We have come close to a second constitutional convention.  I think any Supreme Court interpretation that is very extreme might be met with such a convention.  There was some discussions on that in the links I previously posted.

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...


@Phil56 wrote:

Let’s see, 150,000 dead, millions have tested positive, and the virus is raging out of control.  The nation is experiencing a national public health emergency. This isn’t political, COVID won’t go away after the election.  Until we have effective vaccines and more testing and tracing, we all need to follow CDC and NIH guidance.  


I agree.  And most of our governors seem to be taking appropriate action.  With the virus on the rise again our governor mandated masks.  I wear one.  We do not know if its legal or not but in his executive order he included penalties.  180 days in jail and a $1,000 fine.  He is trying to avoid a complete shut down of our economy again.

Since the penalties were not passed by our legislature many of our county sheriffs believe them to be illegal and are on record saying they will not enforce them.  Doing so might just be creating the police state so many fear.  Lawsuits have already been filed.  You can only do what you have the authority to do.

People are trying to do something.  But, it is my understanding that some people want the federal government to do it.  I don't believe this falls in their area of responsibility.  But then, that is what the courts decide.

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

It might be in a communist country but I assure you it is not in the US. It protects me from stupid people that run this country and stupid citizens. 


@pudman wrote:

"Constitutional rights" is just a hogwash fig leaf (Is that a real thing, Pud?) for pure, unadulterated screw-you! selfishness. Nothing less. 


 

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Re: Thoughts on the virus...

And there will be politics injected....

So raqueteer, what would a win have looked like? All I see are complaints in the media  


@51hh wrote:

Again with another thread on it? 

Ok...:)  

 


 

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