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Re: Coronavirus success story

I think at this point, we all should read or re-read some Rene Girard.  Mimetic desire, scapegoating, and much more were his domain, which transcended multiple disciplines.

The key insight for me is that humans mimic and reciprocate behavior.  Even if a person on the other side of a divide (opinion or political) is correct, if the message is delivered with a snarl and condescension, the message is lost and the snarl and condescension is reciprocated.

It may take a thousand years, but eventually people may learn that no matter how good their logic, if they treat others like cretins and let them know they have little if any empathy for them, no amount of persuasion will help compliance.

Even politicians used to know that you at least had to fake compassion and understanding to get people to go along with a program.

As unwelcome as this message may be for most, the beginning of peace and understanding requires an olive branch.  Even if it is delivered with hypocrisy.  Such beneficial hypocrisy ends wars.  Contempt blocks this.

This is why people on the right don't pay attention to arguments that come from the left, and vice versa.  It is why our society is broken.

 

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Re: Coronavirus success story

Giving hydroxychloroquine to COVID patient does more bad than good. I thought Thailand had better medical expertise.

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@CarlosDS wrote:

Giving hydroxychloroquine to COVID patient does more bad than good. I thought Thailand had better medical expertise.


I have no knowledge about this so I can’t answer. All I can tell you is that it is working in Thailand. Maybe it works better with spicy food.

Two of my high school friends are established doctors in Boston, and both are strong proponents of hydroxychloroquine for Covid. So your assertion does not appear to be definitive.

Note: I have no (“n”-“o”) intention of engaging in political discussion on this thread, or discussion with anyone whose comments appear to be politically motivated. 

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@51hh wrote:

With all due respect, those two, and many other so-called experts, are not making much progress thus far.

Yes, it is next to impossible to have a united front on this matter, in this country.  


Is the lack of progress due to their lack of expertise? If so, they should be replaced by actual experts. That is the responsibility of their boss. Unless we have nobody capable in all of the USA. 

I'd liken the situation to a top cardiac surgeon treating a fellow who refuses to exercise and stop eating piles of bacon between puffs of his cigarette. Expertise would have little bearing on the matter. 

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@chang wrote:

@CarlosDS wrote:

Giving hydroxychloroquine to COVID patient does more bad than good. I thought Thailand had better medical expertise.


I have no knowledge about this so I can’t answer. All I can tell you is that it is working in Thailand. Maybe it works better with spicy food.

Two of my high school friends are established doctors in Boston, and both are strong proponents of hydroxychloroquine for Covid. So your assertion does not appear to be definitive.

Note: I have no (“n”-“o”) intention of engaging in political discussion on this thread, or discussion with anyone whose comments appear to be politically motivated. 


LINK

"July 1, 2020 Update: A summary of the FDA review of safety issues with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is now available. This includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure."

Anecdotes and suppositions are no substitute for clinical studies. There may be factors involved that are not readily apparent, like "spicy foods" (diet) or age or even reporting issues.  

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@DrVenture wrote:

@chang wrote:

@CarlosDS wrote:

Giving hydroxychloroquine to COVID patient does more bad than good. I thought Thailand had better medical expertise.


I have no knowledge about this so I can’t answer. All I can tell you is that it is working in Thailand. Maybe it works better with spicy food.

Two of my high school friends are established doctors in Boston, and both are strong proponents of hydroxychloroquine for Covid. So your assertion does not appear to be definitive.

Note: I have no (“n”-“o”) intention of engaging in political discussion on this thread, or discussion with anyone whose comments appear to be politically motivated. 


LINK

"July 1, 2020 Update: A summary of the FDA review of safety issues with the use of hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine to treat hospitalized patients with COVID-19 is now available. This includes reports of serious heart rhythm problems and other safety issues, including blood and lymph system disorders, kidney injuries, and liver problems and failure."

Anecdotes and suppositions are no substitute for clinical studies. There may be factors involved that are not readily apparent, like "spicy foods" (diet) or age or even reporting issues.  


There is nothing political about the use of hydroxychloroquine. India banned the use of this right from the beginning for the teatment of COVID-19 although Modi was happy to oblige Trump's request to allow export from India to US. I understand that VA used them and a lot vetrans lost their lives.

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Re: Coronavirus success story

Thanks. However I lean toward my personal friends/doctors and Thailand’s doctors. The facts and science are obviously far from black and white. There are numerous scientific studies and evidence in favor of hydroxychloroquine. Anyone who paints the facts and science as black and white is imo not credible and almost certainly political.

The US FDA incidentally is definitely not the last word on science. One highly respected Boston doctor considers them a criminal organization for withholding approval of countless beneficial drugs proven in use around the world.

I hope @RyanM will not lock this thread, as I would like to be able to report 90 days and 180 days with no new infections in the country, as well as how they manage re-opening of the borders. Ryan's actions to suppress political provocations are much appreciated.

I will not reply to any political or politically motivated comments.

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@Gary1952 wrote:

One would think without a viable host to feed on, a single virus does not exist in Thailand after starving it for 44 days. Why is anyone wearing masks?


Probably because we’re in Stage 5 of the re-opening plan, and the next stage(s) will involve re-opening the borders to business and tourist travelers. That will be the really tricky part, I think.

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Re: Coronavirus success story

To achieve world domination, all China needs to do is read this thread!  While this virus jumping from animal to humans may have been coincidental, how the US and some western countries’ societies are handling the  aftermath provides a nice blue print for any Dr Evil.  The next one is a biological warfare and we better start caring about each other and stop acting like suicide bombers and learn self discipline. 

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Re: Coronavirus success story

Facts are by definition "black & white". That there are so many facts involved here is what leads people to draw inadequate conclusions. They pick and choose which facts to fixate upon. I am certainly not aware of "numerous scientific studies" on the efficacy of hydroxychloroquine as a COVID treatment. These studies would have all had to have been accomplished in the last 6 months. And been part of the FDA review process. I am open to seeing this data.

Since Thailand has had only 3000 confirmed cases and 300,000 possible cases, I certainly wonder how much of that is "fact" and what is inference. If they had 3000 confirmed cases and 1/5 required hospitalization, then possibly 600 may have been treated with hydroxychloroquine at some unknown level or dosage. Of that 600, only those with certain underlying conditions would be subject to major complications. Since there was no control group, the results are virtually meaningless.

This was not a large clinical study. It amounts to conjecture and inference. I neither accept, not reject it. Not enough information and too many variables. To decide either way is an act of faith. That is the purview of religion, not science. 

 

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Re: Coronavirus success story

Nobody knows if we will have an effective vaccination.  There is already a movement in the US for no-vaccination.  While we debate how wearing masks is not what God intended, hospitals are getting overwhelmed with Covid patients, which is preventing other essentials procedures, including cancer treatment.  

Can the health insurance companies withstand the financial burden? 

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@Anitya wrote:

To achieve world domination, all China needs to do is read this thread!  While this virus jumping from animal to humans may have been coincidental, how the US and some western countries’ societies are handling the  aftermath provides a nice blue print for any Dr Evil.  The next one is a biological warfare and we better start caring about each other and stop acting like suicide bombers and learn self discipline. 


it appears to behoove religious leaders and political leaders to divide people to consolidate their own power. It has worked for thousands of years and they seem to be perfecting the art. As long as we pledge fealty to these sociopathic personalities we will continue down this path. The folks who followed Jim Jones or believe in Kim Un Jong are not all uneducated dimwits, yet they are indeed true believers.

Edited to remove a reference to "Scientology", which in retrospect was too partisan. My bad! 

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@Anitya wrote:

To achieve world domination, all China needs to do is read this thread!  While this virus jumping from animal to humans may have been coincidental, how the US and some western countries’ societies are handling the  aftermath provides a nice blue print for any Dr Evil.  The next one is a biological warfare and we better start caring about each other and stop acting like suicide bombers and learn self discipline. 


China passed us as Africa's largest trading partner 10 years ago.  They are now moving to having a blue water navy, some would say they have one already.  While we dither and now want to extend the hull life of the Arleigh Burke destroyers, they have embarked on an escalating destroyer production program which will see 55 new destroyers by 2030 in addition to three new carriers, not counting the one they just launched.  They can't compare with our carriers, but their role is different.  The USN considers the Type 055 destroyer to be a cruiser; its primary function is area denial. 

All of this while the 7th fleet is still failing its certification tests in basic navigation.  The results of the sealift test which were conduced last year and released in Dec. before the Covid fiasco on the Roosevelt showed the navy could only meet 40% of its goal.  Moral is still low, they are sleep deprived working often 100 hours a week; the "five and dime" sleep schedule (five hours on duty, ten hours off) was not ideal and now with shortages, that has gone out the window.   We have had seven Secretaries of the Navy in the last 3.5 years; its a mess. 

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@DrVenture wrote:

@Anitya wrote:

To achieve world domination, all China needs to do is read this thread!  While this virus jumping from animal to humans may have been coincidental, how the US and some western countries’ societies are handling the  aftermath provides a nice blue print for any Dr Evil.  The next one is a biological warfare and we better start caring about each other and stop acting like suicide bombers and learn self discipline. 


it appears to behoove religious leaders and political leaders to divide people to consolidate their own power. It has worked for thousands of years and they seem to be perfecting the art. As long as we pledge fealty to these sociopathic personalities we will continue down this path. The folks who followed Jim Jones or follow Scientology or believe in Kim Un Jong are not all uneducated dimwits, yet they are indeed true believers.


@RyanM please remove this (and other) political refuse recently posted, but kindly do not lock the thread (yet). Or maybe lock it if you deem that the political actors are uncontrollable.

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Re: Coronavirus success story

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/covid-19-va-study-points-to-increased-mortality-with-hydroxychloroq...

Here is one of the references on the VA study of the malaria tablet - Hydroxy chloroquine.

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@chang wrote:

@DrVenture wrote:

@Anitya wrote:

To achieve world domination, all China needs to do is read this thread!  While this virus jumping from animal to humans may have been coincidental, how the US and some western countries’ societies are handling the  aftermath provides a nice blue print for any Dr Evil.  The next one is a biological warfare and we better start caring about each other and stop acting like suicide bombers and learn self discipline. 


it appears to behoove religious leaders and political leaders to divide people to consolidate their own power. It has worked for thousands of years and they seem to be perfecting the art. As long as we pledge fealty to these sociopathic personalities we will continue down this path. The folks who followed Jim Jones or follow Scientology or believe in Kim Un Jong are not all uneducated dimwits, yet they are indeed true believers.


@RyanM please remove this (and other) political refuse recently posted, but kindly do not lock the thread (yet). Or maybe lock it if you deem that the political actors are uncontrollable.


How exactly is this political?  Because I used the word "politician"?  If anything it is psychological or sociological, possibly even an abject lesson in history. Not even remotely partisan (OK in retrospect, apologies to Scientologists - fixed). It is not a personal attack. But, it smacks of retribution and censorship. Be interesting to see how this goes. 

However, I would submit that the word "refuse" is certainly bordering on a personal insult. 

Reminder: Just because you initiate a thread it does not belong to you.

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@chang wrote:

@DrVenture wrote:

@Anitya wrote:

To achieve world domination, all China needs to do is read this thread!  While this virus jumping from animal to humans may have been coincidental, how the US and some western countries’ societies are handling the  aftermath provides a nice blue print for any Dr Evil.  The next one is a biological warfare and we better start caring about each other and stop acting like suicide bombers and learn self discipline. 


it appears to behoove religious leaders and political leaders to divide people to consolidate their own power. It has worked for thousands of years and they seem to be perfecting the art. As long as we pledge fealty to these sociopathic personalities we will continue down this path. The folks who followed Jim Jones or follow Scientology or believe in Kim Un Jong are not all uneducated dimwits, yet they are indeed true believers.


@RyanM please remove this (and other) political refuse recently posted, but kindly do not lock the thread (yet). Or maybe lock it if you deem that the political actors are uncontrollable.


Chang, To my untrained eye, I do not see anything political but you seem to be offended.  Please highlight the parts that you found offensive so we are aware not to repeat on your thread.  I am asking DrVenture to be deferential and not react to your post.  Thanks.

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@chang wrote:

Thanks. However I lean toward my personal friends/doctors and Thailand’s doctors. The facts and science are obviously far from black and white. There are numerous scientific studies and evidence in favor of hydroxychloroquine. Anyone who paints the facts and science as black and white is imo not credible and almost certainly political.

The US FDA incidentally is definitely not the last word on science. One highly respected Boston doctor considers them a criminal organization for withholding approval of countless beneficial drugs proven in use around the world.

I hope @RyanM will not lock this thread, as I would like to be able to report 90 days and 180 days with no new infections in the country, as well as how they manage re-opening of the borders. Ryan's actions to suppress political provocations are much appreciated.

I will not reply to any political or politically motivated comments.


In the interest in keeping this thread data-driven and scientific, please post links to the numerous scientific studies. I am certain we would all like to see them in the pursuit of knowledge. And the info about the "highly respected Boston doctor" and his proof the FDA is a "criminal organization". Is there a cover up involved by the mainstream media, perhaps? Not interested in anything political here. Just the facts, man. 

Also curious how you determine what is "politically motivated"? Does it emanate from the "usual suspects"?

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@rumples wrote:

@Anitya wrote:

To achieve world domination, all China needs to do is read this thread!  While this virus jumping from animal to humans may have been coincidental, how the US and some western countries’ societies are handling the  aftermath provides a nice blue print for any Dr Evil.  The next one is a biological warfare and we better start caring about each other and stop acting like suicide bombers and learn self discipline. 


China passed us as Africa's largest trading partner 10 years ago.  They are now moving to having a blue water navy, some would say they have one already.  While we dither and now want to extend the hull life of the Arleigh Burke destroyers, they have embarked on an escalating destroyer production program which will see 55 new destroyers by 2030 in addition to three new carriers, not counting the one they just launched.  They can't compare with our carriers, but their role is different.  The USN considers the Type 055 destroyer to be a cruiser; its primary function is area denial. 

All of this while the 7th fleet is still failing its certification tests in basic navigation.  The results of the sealift test which were conduced last year and released in Dec. before the Covid fiasco on the Roosevelt showed the navy could only meet 40% of its goal.  Moral is still low, they are sleep deprived working often 100 hours a week; the "five and dime" sleep schedule (five hours on duty, ten hours off) was not ideal and now with shortages, that has gone out the window.   We have had seven Secretaries of the Navy in the last 3.5 years; its a mess. 


Rumples, I understand your concern but military might is not necessary to dominate the world.  If China does not spend another dime on their military, there are other means by which they can inflict long lasting pain.    Countries that have the discipline to outlast them in a pandemic do not have any military to talk about and China can take them down very easily.  Their pervasiveness of espionage and other subversive tactics  is beyond what any western country, including Russia, can do.  The principal difference is they play a long game and they are not new at this.   Interesting that I have the same conversations with military people in my family.

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Re: Coronavirus success story


@ECEPROF wrote:

https://www.physiciansweekly.com/covid-19-va-study-points-to-increased-mortality-with-hydroxychloroq...

Here is one of the references on the VA study of the malaria tablet - Hydroxy chloroquine.


Good info. Can we assume that the VA is not a criminal organization? 

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