cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 
     
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@CarlosDS wrote:

...A sneeze to the face will infect you long before the air has a chance to be circulated through the filter. Every science and math person knows this...

Exactly. That's why air filtration in public closed areas will always be deficient in preventing spread.


Right and no matter how effective a HEPA filter is , to effectively cleanse air, the air in an enclosed space must be exchanged anywhere from 10 to 200 times per hour. Few systems can do this effectively, the filters are hella expensive and the noise horrific. What may be scientifically possible, is simply not realistic in practice. 

Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@Holiday wrote:


Hi Ryan,

Thank you for your comment, I will take some direction from it.  

I did not intend to "infuse" any of my posts with sarcasm. It is simply difficult to respond to the inaccuracies in Norbert's posts as others have been trying to do also.

Sometimes people get angry and sensitive when their beliefs are threatened with fact.  But, if you want to argue a fringe position in the context of the recent spike in new Covid-19 infections, then it is reasonable to think that you WILL be expected to cite your own supporting evidence. It is not the responsibility of those who disagree to "look it up" and do it for you.

Norbert sidestepped the challenges being made to his argument by asserting sarcasm. Again, this was not my intention, but I can see now how Norbert may have understood my closing remarks in that way. 

I will do better.

But one of many questions still remain: How exactly IS Vitamin D3 used to prevent a Covid-19 infection? 

Thank you,

Holiday


@RyanM 

Sorry, but you suggested that if we can't reply respectfully, we should not reply.  I agreed to respect your request.

I will avoid replying to another sarcastic Holiday post. 

N.

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@DrVenture wrote:

@CarlosDS wrote:

...A sneeze to the face will infect you long before the air has a chance to be circulated through the filter. Every science and math person knows this...

Exactly. That's why air filtration in public closed areas will always be deficient in preventing spread.


Right and no matter how effective a HEPA filter is , to effectively cleanse air, the air in an enclosed space must be exchanged anywhere from 10 to 200 times per hour. Few systems can do this effectively, the filters are hella expensive and the noise horrific. What may be scientifically possible, is simply not realistic in practice. 


Hi DrV,

I am more familiar with hydraulic / pneumatic systems than HVAC, but it may actually take 5 hours (common in the hydraulic world) to kidney-loop-filter 95% of the oil in a reservoir depending on internal currents and new contamination.

Some droplets of oil are filtered many hundreds of times during this process while 5% never make it through the filter. There are formulae and on-line calculators if you want to get into beta factors and all that. I have an old Parker Hannifin guide for reference.

Moisture is the enemy of filters, and air conditioners remove humidity when set below the dew point. Breathing and sweating bodies replenish some of the humidity that is removed so moisture is a "chronic" condition. I would be surprised to learn that humidity was not also a problem with HEPA filters.

@Gary1952 

I really enjoyed your HVAC HEPA commentary. I went back and read it again after Bob made reference. I wanted to be sure I did not miss anything or a separate post. You spoke with a greater expertise than I have in the HVAC world. My experience is primarily R&D engineering / machinery.

Thank you,

Holiday

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@DrVenture wrote:

@CarlosDS wrote:

...A sneeze to the face will infect you long before the air has a chance to be circulated through the filter. Every science and math person knows this...

Exactly. That's why air filtration in public closed areas will always be deficient in preventing spread.


Right and no matter how effective a HEPA filter is , to effectively cleanse air, the air in an enclosed space must be exchanged anywhere from 10 to 200 times per hour. Few systems can do this effectively, the filters are hella expensive and the noise horrific. What may be scientifically possible, is simply not realistic in practice. 


This is exactly my argument.  We're seeing spikes in Covid-19 infections in many hot, southern states as folks congregate indoors in closed, air-conditioned spaces. 

One of the safest places to be right now is in a plane, where effective air filtration systems have been installed.  Alternatively, live in Sydney, Australia; in Bangkok; in Greece.

This is my 5th day back in Paris. Walking past a playground in the Jardins du Luxembourg, I saw that almost no one is wearing a mask; not the parents and not the kids.

N.

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

Vitamin D is necessary for a healthy immune system in general. Recently it was surmised that based on better recovery rates in Nordic countries, where vitamin D is taken regularly, that it may play a role in mitigating symptoms and shortening the course of COVID. Not in prevention of COVID specifically, but general immune boosting. And more specifically that a vitamin D deficiency might make the symptoms worse.

I don't even know what is being discussed here anymore. What is the point other than arguing discrete technical issues for internet points? 

 

 

 

 

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@norbertc wrote:

@DrVenture wrote:

@CarlosDS wrote:

...A sneeze to the face will infect you long before the air has a chance to be circulated through the filter. Every science and math person knows this...

Exactly. That's why air filtration in public closed areas will always be deficient in preventing spread.


Right and no matter how effective a HEPA filter is , to effectively cleanse air, the air in an enclosed space must be exchanged anywhere from 10 to 200 times per hour. Few systems can do this effectively, the filters are hella expensive and the noise horrific. What may be scientifically possible, is simply not realistic in practice. 


This is exactly my argument.  We're seeing spikes in Covid-19 infections in many hot, southern states as folks congregate indoors in closed, air-conditioned spaces. 

One of the safest places to be right now is in a plane, where effective air filtration systems have been installed.  Alternatively, live in Sydney, Australia; in Bangkok; in Greece.

This is my 5th day back in Paris. Walking past a playground in the Jardins du Luxembourg, I saw that almost no one is wearing a mask; not the parents and not the kids.

N.


No doubt closed spaces are a problem. Still, the dynamics are much more complex than that. People could congregate indoors with social distancing or at home and it would be mostly fine. Crowding into bars, refusing to wear a mask and ignoring safe practices all have a role in spreading a virus. 

If someone sneezes in an airplane, no mask, they are going to spread a whole lot of virus long before the air ever reaches any filtration. Some of that virus will settle on clothes, seats and belongings to be transferred later. In a perfect world, the filtration would be efficient, people would sneeze into their own sleeve and artificial UV light and disinfectants would mitigate spread. But, I wouldn't count on it.

Again, the real problem as it applies to the economy, and re-opening, is perception.  People and corporations are not confident that we are doing all we can (or enough) to provide safety. Even if we are, people are not feeling that. This is going to drag on indefinitely if we don't take appropriate action and present effective messaging. 

The elephant in the room is that we could have a mutated virus in six months, or an entirely new one. Everyone is counting on this ending with a vaccine. If it starts all over with a different variation, do we continue on our current trajectory for cycle after cycle? Or do we unite and begin addressing our deficiencies? A united front from state and federal leadership and CDC and WHO and the medical community is a necessity to effectively move forward. We do not have that at this point.

Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@DrVenture wrote:

Vitamin D is necessary for a healthy immune system in general. Recently it was surmised that based on better recovery rates in Nordic countries, where vitamin D is taken regularly, that it may play a role in mitigating symptoms and shortening the course of COVID. Not in prevention of COVID specifically, but general immune boosting. And more specifically that a vitamin D deficiency might make the symptoms worse.

I don't even know what is being discussed here anymore. What is the point other than arguing discrete technical issues for internet points? 


 Hi DrV,

A healthy immune system is a good thing to have before you are infected with Covid-19. But that is only 1 thing in a group of many variables that will determine your specific health outcome. But, even a healthy immune system may have a hard time identifying the threat from a Novel Coronavirus.  Vitamin D3 will not prevent a Covid-19 infection, and a healthy immune system may not prevent the infection either..

Therefore, it is better to avoid getting a Covid infection in the first place which has been the overarching context of the discussion. In my view, Air Filtration, Vitamin D3, Sunshine, Fresh Outdoor Air, Hot Summer Temperatures, or Herd Immunity are either ineffective, or counterproductive.

So far, the best advice seems to be wearing a mask, social distancing, washing hands, not touching the face, and quarantine being the most effective. 

Those who rebel against that simple advice seem to be advocating for the sunshine and dietary supplement group of options. Some even felt so strongly that they took military weapons to state capitols in protest of mainstream health recommendations

At least that is my take

Holiday

Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

"A united front from state and federal leadership and CDC and WHO and the medical community is a necessity to effectively move forward. We do not have that at this point."

+1. Right now, only persons who make any sense to me are Fauci and Brix.

Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

Nat,

Respectfully, I get Fauci. I have reservations about Brix.

Bob

Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@GLI2019 wrote:

Nat,

Respectfully, I get Fauci. I have reservations about Brix.

Bob


You may be correct about Brix. Although her words are not as forceful as Fauci's are ('we are going in the wrong direction'), sometimes she comes out with concerns. For example, two days ago, she said something to effect that the reopening went too far and in a too short time (at 55 mph instead of 20 mph).

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@Holiday wrote:

@DrVenture wrote:

Vitamin D is necessary for a healthy immune system in general. Recently it was surmised that based on better recovery rates in Nordic countries, where vitamin D is taken regularly, that it may play a role in mitigating symptoms and shortening the course of COVID. Not in prevention of COVID specifically, but general immune boosting. And more specifically that a vitamin D deficiency might make the symptoms worse.

I don't even know what is being discussed here anymore. What is the point other than arguing discrete technical issues for internet points? 


 Hi DrV,

A healthy immune system is a good thing to have before you are infected with Covid-19. But that is only 1 thing in a group of many variables that will determine your specific health outcome. But, even a healthy immune system may have a hard time identifying the threat from a Novel Coronavirus.  Vitamin D3 will not prevent a Covid-19 infection, and a healthy immune system may not prevent the infection either..

Therefore, it is better to avoid getting a Covid infection in the first place which has been the overarching context of the discussion. In my view, Air Filtration, Vitamin D3, Sunshine, Fresh Outdoor Air, Hot Summer Temperatures, or Herd Immunity are either ineffective, or counterproductive.

So far, the best advice seems to be wearing a mask, social distancing, washing hands, not touching the face, and quarantine being the most effective. 

Those who rebel against that simple advice seem to be advocating for the sunshine and dietary supplement group of options. Some even felt so strongly that they took military weapons to state capitols in protest of mainstream health recommendations

At least that is my take

Holiday


Holiday,

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe we're just talking past each other..

No one here ever proposed a healthy immune system, air filtration, fresh air, sunshine, or herd immunity as SOLUTIONS. I cite these things as FACTORS that help explain the infection and death rate patterns we're observing. Other factors are border closures and mask discipline.

We know that several Asian countries have got the virus under control. Chang is in Thailand and has reported on the mask discipline and tracking software being used there.

I've been living in Greece, which has succeeded by closing borders; hardly anyone wears a mask and there's no tracking software.

Right now Europe is seeing a low infection rate. Why? Excellent mask discipline? Absolutely not. My guess is that it's just the good weather. I fully expect a second wave this Fall. Hope I'm wrong. 

Like France, many US states have poor mask discipline. Why the surge of cases? I tried to explain that. Am I right? Don't know! Am just speculating.

What's to be done? Well, we probably agree. Wear a mask around other people. Wash hands. That's what I do.

And hope we get solid treatment options and an efficacious vaccine.

But, I take the world as it is. I can't force other people to wear masks. Angela Merkel just gave an important speech. No mask. 

So, I'll probably head back to Greece in September, and hope the virus hasn't spread there. Am spending the rest of July in Denmark (no masks). Probably can't go to Israel in August as planned.

N.

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Participant ○○○

Re: Coronavirus success story

On the face of it, the dietary sunshine argument doesn't hold water. The virus is raging in the south and southwest.  I'm sure they get their Vitamin D from the sun.  For light skinned people, 15 minutes a day should give them their vitamin D dose. 

Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

My wife and I take the D3 supplements. I take 4000 mg/day - two capsules/day. I do not know the dosage of my wife.

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

Finally, Fauci has said it.

"The US isn't "doing great" with Covid-19 and partisanship is in part to blame, Fauci says"

“I mean, it’s just unfortunate, but it is what it is. And you know, from experience historically, that when you don’t have unanimity in an approach to something, you’re not as effective in how you handle it. So I think you’d have to make the assumption that if there wasn’t such divisiveness, that we would have a more coordinated approach," he said.

https://www.cnn.com/world/live-news/coronavirus-pandemic-07-09-20-intl/index.html

To read it, you have to scroll down almost to the bottom because they keep filling the cornovirus news as they come.

 

 

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Participant ○○○

Re: Coronavirus success story


@rumples wrote:

On the face of it, the dietary sunshine argument doesn't hold water. The virus is raging in the south and southwest.  I'm sure they get their Vitamin D from the sun.  For light skinned people, 15 minutes a day should give them their vitamin D dose. 


No, heat and sunshine do not seem to hold water. Panama, a country of 4M people, is having a difficult time.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/panama/

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/panama-sees-surge-of-coronavirus-infections-after-reopening/ar-...

And, they have long implemented unique and good strategies.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/01/world/panama-coronavirus-sex-intl/index.html

 

 

Highlighted
Contributor ○○○

Re: Coronavirus success story


@ECEPROF wrote:

<snip>

"The US isn't "doing great" with Covid-19 and partisanship is in part to blame, Fauci says"

“I mean, it’s just unfortunate, but it is what it is. And you know, from experience historically, that when you don’t have unanimity in an approach to something, you’re not as effective in how you handle it. So I think you’d have to make the assumption that if there wasn’t such divisiveness, that we would have a more coordinated approach," he said.

<snip>


Dr. Fauci's analysis is correct.

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@ECEPROF wrote:

"A united front from state and federal leadership and CDC and WHO and the medical community is a necessity to effectively move forward. We do not have that at this point."

+1. Right now, only persons who make any sense to me are Fauci and Brix.


And just what should be the United front necessary to effectively move forward?

Please explain,

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

With all due respect, those two, and many other so-called experts, are not making much progress thus far.

Yes, it is next to impossible to have a united front on this matter, in this country.  

0 Kudos
Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

Besides all the exposure mitigation measures that Thailand has taken, their discharge and fatality rates are good because they are treating infected persons very aggressively. Here is the official Ministry of Health treatment guideline for COVID-19 patients in Thailand.

- Asymptomatic = observe in hospital 7 days

- Mild case = hydroxychloroquine + either combination of darunavir/ritonavir, lopinavir/ritonavir or zithromax (all of these except zithromax can be produced in Thailand by GMO)

- Mild case with comorbidity or moderate case with pneumonia = hydroxychloroquine + either combination d/r or l/r + zithromax

- Severe case = hydroxychloroquine + combination d/r or r/l + zithromax + avigan (falipiravir)

Highlighted
Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

With all due respect, Fauci gave the best medical advice and is the only one I follow. It is the lack of leadership that has wasted all the effort we previously made. As Fauci said, Southern States should have a hard look at locking down again.  

Announcements