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Contributor ○

Re: Coronavirus success story

"I don’t know, maybe I’m wrong,’ 

I could not have said that to hitler.   I think it is appropriate to question one's notion of shades of gray but not everything. 

 

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Contributor ○

Re: Coronavirus success story

"We are all sinners and flawed"

Please elaborate - I am interested in learning more about this statement.   Is this just a catchy phrase or is there truth to it?  If it is true, does it apply just to human beings or to all living organisms?

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Re: Coronavirus success story

The quote gets a lot of press, but it was based on the evidence at the time and it is taken out of context.  Here is the entire quote:

LaPook, March 8: There’s a lot of confusion among people, and misinformation, surrounding face masks. Can you discuss that?

Fauci: The masks are important for someone who’s infected to prevent them from infecting someone else… Right now in the United States, people should not be walking around with masks.

LaPook: You’re sure of it? Because people are listening really closely to this.

Fauci: …There’s no reason to be walking around with a mask. When you’re in the middle of an outbreak, wearing a mask might make people feel a little bit better and it might even block a droplet, but it’s not providing the perfect protection that people think that it is. And, often, there are unintended consequences — people keep fiddling with the mask and they keep touching their face.

LaPook: And can you get some schmutz, sort of staying inside there?

Fauci: Of course, of course. But, when you think masks, you should think of health care providers needing them and people who are ill. The people who, when you look at the films of foreign countries and you see 85% of the people wearing masks — that’s fine, that’s fine. I’m not against it. If you want to do it, that’s fine.

LaPook: But it can lead to a shortage of masks?

Fauci: Exactly, that’s the point. It could lead to a shortage of masks for the people who really need it.

Thus in short, masks are not perfect, but they help.  But when there is a shortage, let the folks on the front lines get what is available.  We now don't have a shortage. 

But unlike many nations, our response has been a failure by any measure. We still don't have a coherent strategy on wearing masks, the criteria for reopening is ignored, rallies are being held in closed environments and yet while we are encouraged to go back to work, some federal agencies are closed and some are open even in the same zip code.    There will be a new message from the WH it seems.  Its being floated now, rather than being a hoax, rather than it going away, we are going to be told we just have to live with it.  I suppose so, but as evidenced by other nations, it did not have to be this bad.  We should have been told the truth, that it was going to be difficult.   

 

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Contributor ○

Re: Coronavirus success story

Thanks, rumples.  We started with an extreme shortage of PPE and Fauci's commentary was in that context.  It turned out that we can not implore the sick to wear a mask and so now all of us need to wear a mask. 

Brings back the memory of Rand Paul.   He is a trained physician.  He took a Covid test and was seen using a public gym and swimming pool at the gym on the day his test result came out positive.   That is the height of selfishness.  Education does not necessarily increase intelligence.

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Participant ○○

Re: Coronavirus success story

 

 

The evidence at the time was the context.  

On Feb 17, Fauci called the risk here "minuscule" and said "Now, in the United States, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to wear a mask."

Mar 30 no masks per WHO.

On Mar 31, Surg Gen said no masks but days later changed his tune.

Perhaps PPE shortages caused such positions, but if so were they arguably short of the courage of Galileo?

 

 

 

 

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Explorer ○

Re: Coronavirus success story

Those who circulate “gotcha” stories of how science gets it wrong are simply defending ignorance. They want to ignore expert advice, so they cherry-pick quotes to back the false narrative that experts are just bumbling fools.

Well, since we’re circulating stories, here’s another Dr. Fauci quote. In late March, he predicted the United States could suffer 100,000 to 200,000 coronavirus deaths. A mere three months later, the USA now stands at 132,000 deaths. And that number is still rising.

If Americans weren’t so pigheaded, maybe we wouldn’t lead the entire planet in coronavirus deaths. The self-professed defenders of liberty should learn the difference between a patriot and a sociopath.

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Participant ○○○

Re: Coronavirus success story

It is the same with the WHO quote.  The entire press briefing includes: “we prioritize the use of masks for those who need it most...we need to be clear, the world is facing a significant shortage of PPE for our frontline workers -- including masks and gloves and gowns and face shields -- and protecting our health care workers must be the top priority for use of this PPE."

But they were right about people not wearing them right. Covering your mouth and not not your nose is pretty useless.  I observed an employee at Kroger was doing that, sneezed and then walked off.  So upset, I left my groceries and went home.  I then called the manager, he sent me $100 in gift cards. 

Now, in VA, the Dept of Health has a hotline to report violations so they can send a health inspector.  

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Participant ○○○

Re: Coronavirus success story


@rumples wrote:

It is the same with the WHO quote.  The entire press briefing includes: “we prioritize the use of masks for those who need it most...we need to be clear, the world is facing a significant shortage of PPE for our frontline workers -- including masks and gloves and gowns and face shields -- and protecting our health care workers must be the top priority for use of this PPE."

But they were right about people not wearing them right. Covering your mouth and not not your nose is pretty useless.  I observed an employee at Kroger was doing that, sneezed and then walked off.  So upset, I left my groceries and went home.  I then called the manager, he sent me $100 in gift cards. 

Now, in VA, the Dept of Health has a hotline to report violations so they can send a health inspector.  

 


Are you certain that the employee was not the manager?

Did you sanitize the gift cards?

 

 

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Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

 

I have to wonder what would happen to the real soldier who intentionally gave his commanding officer incomplete, misleading, and 5-month old information in order to support his own personal "false narrative" and misdirect policy response. Hopefully, this behavior is not universally taught in basic training.

 

 

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Participant ○○○

Re: Coronavirus success story

LOL, yes I am certain the employee was not the manager.  I am a regular customer and know who the manager is - he actually manages two locations and I see him at both.  This particular employee is always slovenly.  While I did not sanitize the gift cards, I did with them what I do with the mail, let it sit for more than three days, for important mail, I wash my hands after handing.  Its overkill perhaps, but prudent since it calms my mind in this temporal matter.

"Life is always uncertain, and common prudence dictates to every man the necessity of settling his temporal concerns, while it is in his power, and while the mind is calm and undisturbed"  Letter from George Washington to Martha Washington June 18, 1775.  

(Note that this letter is remarkable.  When she died, Martha Washington was thought to, and intended to, destroy all of his letters to her.  This was one of two letters found tucked away in a drawer by her granddaughter.)

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Participant ○○

Re: Coronavirus success story

 

Looking back at what happened is not defending ignorance, but opposing it.   

"Follow the Science" has become a theological incantation, but a timeline of Fauci quotations has more twists and turns than Lombard Street in Frisco.   Alfred North Whitehead couldn't follow his "logic" some days.

The fact that experts like Ferguson were dramatically wrong isn't "gotcha" but part of the history of the novel coronavirus.

Subpar mask material, poor fit, and improper use are visible everywhere, and one of the early criticisms was that masks delimited outgoing sneeze droplets but might give the wearer false security re incoming.

Some translations of mask advice into other languages emphasized social courtesy as much as medicine.

In the future, scientific reputations will be made not just on a vaccine or therapy, but analyzing mask efficacy.

Was there a Copernicus or Mendel who experimented and came up with 6 feet of social distance in some quod erat demonstrandum moment?   

Given the 36 million lost jobs and trillions spent, pondering what happened should not be verboten.

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Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@rumples wrote:

"Life is always uncertain, and common prudence dictates to every man the necessity of settling his temporal concerns, while it is in his power, and while the mind is calm and undisturbed"  Letter from George Washington to Martha Washington June 18, 1775.  

 

Thanks!  Still timely and wise advice at this juncture, especially on today. 

How the leaders and the people have changed over these two hundred and more years!!


 

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Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story


@rumples wrote:

It is the same with the WHO quote.  The entire press briefing includes: “we prioritize the use of masks for those who need it most...we need to be clear, the world is facing a significant shortage of PPE for our frontline workers -- including masks and gloves and gowns and face shields -- and protecting our health care workers must be the top priority for use of this PPE."

But they were right about people not wearing them right. Covering your mouth and not not your nose is pretty useless.  I observed an employee at Kroger was doing that, sneezed and then walked off.  So upset, I left my groceries and went home.  I then called the manager, he sent me $100 in gift cards. 

Now, in VA, the Dept of Health has a hotline to report violations so they can send a health inspector.  


Thank you Rumples for giving context to Fauci's and WHO's words. It really changes the meaning that those wanting to perpetuate ignorance give to them.

Another fact that is largely underappreciated by the no-mask crowd is that science now knows that a large percentage of new infections are caused by asymptomatic spreaders. It follows that if they were using masks many new infections would be avoided.

It is true that masks limitations but the benefits largely exceed them.     

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Participant ○○

Re: Coronavirus success story

 

The context is what was actually said vis-a-vis  the evidence at the time.

On March 30, WHO recommended that people NOT wear masks unless they had covid or were caring for somebody sick.

"There is no specific evidence to suggest that the wearing of masks by the mass population has any potential benefit.   In fact, there is some evidence to suggest the opposite in the misuse of wearing a mask properly or fitting it properly."

Dr Ryan went on to mention PPE shortage.

Dr Van Kerkove concurred that health care workers needed masks, but added:

"In the community, we do not recommend the use of wearing masks unless you yourself are sick..."

On March 31, the Surgeon General reiterated his advice to NOT wear a mask which he said could "actually increase your risk."  

"What the World Health Organization and the CDC have reaffirmed in the last few days is that they do not recommend the general public wear masks."   

He cited a 2015 study showing that med students touched their faces more when wearing masks (after touching a contaminated surface) than the non-masked.   So mask adjustment might increase face touching.

Dr Adams mentioned the risk that mask wearing might lull wearers into a false sense of security about proximity to others.

"There may be a day when we change our recommendation...but the data is not there yet."

 

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Contributor ○

Re: Coronavirus success story

There is no hope of prevention or precaution in the US.  Just look at the unmasked and packed crowds at yesterday’s political rally.  We are suicidal. 

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Participant ○○

Re: Coronavirus success story

 

For those like me who always felt masks were a good idea, it has been an interesting episode.

Do the new cases announced daily with alarm spell doom, or should investors ponder the possibility of greater asymptomatic spread en route to population immunity?

As of March 31, the best medical thinking -- WHO, CDC, and Surg Gen -- was no need for masks for healthy members of the general population.

Three mos later, it became an article of faith that maskless folks were slack-jawed morons inferior to Talking Heads on TV with B.A.s in journalism.

In just 90 days, the tide of conventional wisdom (Galbraith) shifted.

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Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

You keep missing the point. On March 31, the prevalence of asymptomatic spread was unknown by the CDC, WHO, Fauci, and every other scientist or doctor. As I said once, you can take a horse to water but you can not make him drink.  

Happy forth!

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Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

Medicine is not a pure science as everybody thinks that it is - like my Electrical and Computer Engineering. I am using this example because I know this one very well. Medicine is something that partly depends on science and partly on statistics because they test these medicines with humans and make suggestions if the medicine works for majority of people.  Even in ECE, we have to use statistics to determine if the design will be successful if certain components have tolerance because in real life, ideal components do not exist.

Sometimes, for the same condition, one needs to use a different medicine because it may interact with another one used for a different condition of a human body. In my case, I am using the fourth medicine in more than 25 years for cholestrol because different doctors think that one is better than the other one for my condition. The one I am taking now for cholestrol was prescribed by a doctor in India two years ago, and my heart doctor (he uses the same) as well as my PCP (also of Indian orgin) have adopted this one for me now. Specifically, young doctors are better because they have been trained to use modern and more effective medicines.

So, the doctors were just learning about the virus back in Feb and early March and did not have enough knowledge. However, based on their pandemic knowledge, some doctors (Vivek, Sanjay, Wen, and others - not in the government now) did warn about the seriousness of this visrus even in Feb and early March. If you had watched CNN and MSNBC, you would have known. I believed in Vivek and Sanjay because of their origin country (and mine too). I never believed the other cuckoo heads from the government. I also have a real local story that happened in our local hospital about this why I believed in these kids. I do not want to go on with it for now. Even now, Trump has refused to give permission for CDC to brief the media. So, if you really want to believe someone from the government, I believe only on Fauci's words.

I am going to stop here.

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Frequent Contributor

Re: Coronavirus success story

We recognized the successes made by others, talked a lot of problems/issues/history; and even potential ways we can do better. 

The fact of this matter is that we do not have a decisive forceful leader, a unified integrated mitigation team, and a fully loyal and cooperative country.  

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Participant ○○○

Re: Coronavirus success story


@johnjtaylor wrote:

 

For those like me who always felt masks were a good idea, it has been an interesting episode.

Do the new cases announced daily with alarm spell doom, or should investors ponder the possibility of greater asymptomatic spread en route to population immunity?

As of March 31, the best medical thinking -- WHO, CDC, and Surg Gen -- was no need for masks for healthy members of the general population.

Three mos later, it became an article of faith that maskless folks were slack-jawed morons inferior to Talking Heads on TV with B.A.s in journalism.

In just 90 days, the tide of conventional wisdom (Galbraith) shifted.


The fact that everyone has been wrong to one rather large degree or another at some point is lost by some.  It is sad that our society has devolved to the point of 2 teams hating each other so much they no longer even consider the arguments of the other side, they simply proceed apace to character assassination, as in the everyone-on-the-other-side-is-the-equivalent-of-Hitler-so-they-must-be-opposed trope.

I think we all need some compassion for each other.  There are crackpots on both sides, but they don't represent the broad masses.  If anyone even cares about actually changing minds any more, you are more likely to do it with less vitriol and more humility and compassion than snarling with contempt.  

But I forget myself, I'm talking to the internet here, lol!  Much more important to revel in your rightness and superiority with like-minded people congratulating each other and savaging the evil other on a niche corner of the internet.

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