Investing in butts and cancer

[outandabout]

https://www.morningstar.com/articles/957425/dividends-and-big-tobacco

Are the dividends really worth it when you know the harm that comes to so many?

[trichebacher]

No - they are not worth it!

[DocWu]

Owned Altria from 2015-2017. Good years to own it. I sold it to lock in a 2X capital gain, and also to prune my individual stock holdings, and a little misgiving about the future of tobacco,

However, I'm not a smoker, so what did I know. 

$11,50 a pack for cigarettes in Illinois, of which $8 is taxes. Amazing.

[chang]

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@outandabout wrote:

https://www.morningstar.com/articles/957425/dividends-and-big-tobacco

Are the dividends really worth it when you know the harm that comes to so many?

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Pepsi, Coke, Doritos, McDonald's, Krispy Kreme, Smith & Wesson, Sears*, Las Vegas Sands, L'Oreal, Canada Goose, Exxon, Monsanto, Excelon,... where does it end? (*Noting that more people are killed by Craftsman hammers than assault rifles.) Oh, mustn't forget big pharma - one of the pres. candidates recently said during a debate that JNJ was a "high-end dope dealer."

There will always be stupid people who make bad decisions and will harm themselves. Always. If people want goods and services, there is nothing wrong with providing them.

[retiredinSC]

This has been discussed here many times -

My wife was a smoker and died of lung cancer over 7 years ago.  I will neither condemn or excuse her behavior.

I think that whether or not to invest in companies engaging legal but potentially harmful behavior is a personal choice.

I have owned coke and macdonalds, and currently own PM, MO, BTI and UVV.

This discussion is part of that 'wall of worry' that stocks must climb.

Good Luck

[Intruder]

I don’t see any benefit from vaping and opioid overdosing to society which is why they need to prohibited for recreational use. Don’t see a future for next generation if use of these products is not strictly controlled.

[Gary1952]

So if I understand correctly the taking of dividends causes cancer? I thought it was the people actually doing the smoking. I say use the divys to take a smoker to lunch and explain the benefits of quitting.

Are we really going down this road of chicken/egg. The book of common sense needs to be rewritten.

[CarlosDS]

It is interesting to look at how dirvergent life expectancy is among states

LINK 

Tabaco, drug abuse and alcohol all play a role in this picture. Obesity, high blood presure and cholesterol are also there. 

[Gary1952]

While I respect your postings, I just finished watching Ken Burns' "Prohibition" again. It was a compelling story on pushing the will of one group on another. Someone always knows better than you. On one hand we have the push to legalize a well-known drug (pot), but some want to eradicate another (vaping products). Opioids are another issue. They are controlled as a medical drug.

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@Intruder wrote:

I don’t see any benefit from vaping and opioid overdosing to society which is why they need to prohibited for recreational use. Don’t see a future for next generation if use of these products is not strictly controlled.

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[Intruder]

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@Gary1952 wrote:

While I respect your postings, I just finished watching Ken Burns' "Prohibition" again. It was a compelling story on pushing the will of one group on another. Someone always knows better than you. On one hand we have the push to legalize a well-known drug (pot), but some want to eradicate another (vaping products). Opioids are another issue. They are controlled as a medical drug.

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@Intruder wrote:

I don’t see any benefit from vaping and opioid overdosing to society which is why they need to prohibited for recreational use. Don’t see a future for next generation if use of these products is not strictly controlled. 

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I don’t see any benefit from prescribing opioids so a large number of people can get high and overdose. Opioids are being blanmed for decline in US life expectancy. And pot is being legalized to raise revenue from taxing it which is causing cause more auto accidents . As for prohibition I don’t see any movement to legalize LSD which is why opioids should be limited to those who have severe pain.

[outandabout]

https://health.costhelper.com/lung-cancer.html

Lung cancer[1] , or cancer that starts in the lungs, is the leading cause of cancer death in the United States, with smokers at greatest risk for contracting the disease. According to the National Institutes of Health[2] , lung cancer is more common in older adults and rarer in people 45 or younger. Typical costs:

For patients covered by health insurance, out-of-pocket costs for skin cancer treatment typically consist of doctor visit, lab and prescription drug copays as well as coinsurance of 10%-50% for surgery and other procedures, which can easily reach the yearly out-of-pocket maximum. Lung cancer treatment typically is covered by health insurance, although some plans might not cover individual drugs or treatments. According to the American Cancer Society[3] , the cost of cancer treatment depends on the type and duration of treatment, and whether the patient is treated at home, in a clinic, in the doctor's office, or in the hospital. For lung cancer in particular, treatment[4] typically involves one or more of the following options, alone or in combination: surgery which can cost[5] $15,000 or more; chemotherapy, which can cost $10,000 -$200,000 or more; radiation therapy, which can cost $10,000-$50,000 or more; and/or drug therapy, which can cost as much as $4,000 or more a month depending on the drug used. For instance, ranibizumab (Lucentis) costs about $1,600 a dose, while Erlotinib (Tarceva) costs $3,500 a dose. One study[6] on the economic burden of lung cancer estimates that the overall costs, from diagnosis to a maximum of two years thereafter, to be about $46,000. The study found that the main cost drivers were hospitalization (49% of costs) and outpatient office visits (35.2% of costs), with a monthly initial treatment phase cost of $11,500 per patient. The Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality [7] reports that patients with lung cancer are typically hospitalized for 7 days at a cost of $15,600 total, or $2,200 per day. If it appears unlikely that the condition can be cured, a doctor may recommend that a patient avoid harsh treatments and opt for supportive care instead. One recent study[8] found that patients who received palliative care incurred, on average, $6,900 less in hospital costs during a given admission than patients who received usual care. Most insurance plans cover palliative care.

[steelpony10]

        The sole purpose of the Federal Government “was” to regulate interstate commerce and provide for national defense. Everything else “were” state issues. Let the voters in the states decide what to regulate.

         Hopefully no government will ever tell you how to invest, spend your own money or how to live your life beyond any interference with others’ freedoms. Or God forbid how many times your allowed to flush a toilet, see the latest from the D. The unspoken corollary to this is no one else should have to pay for your choices beyond basic charity.

[Intruder]

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@steelpony10 wrote:

        The sole purpose of the Federal Government “was” to regulate interstate commerce and provide for national defense. Everything else “were” state issues. Let the voters in the states decide what to regulate.

         Hopefully no government will ever tell you how to invest, spend your own money or how to live your life beyond any interference with others’ freedoms. Or God forbid how many times your allowed to flush a toilet, see the latest from the D. The unspoken corollary to this is no one else should have to pay for your choices beyond basic charity.

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Not exactly

In order to eradicate segregation laws,  in the late 1950s the US Supreme Court expanded the definition of interstate commerce to include anyone engaged in or affected by interstate commerce which includes all citizens because everyone buys or sells products that are manufactured or shipped in interstate commerce.

states could not use the 10th amendment to invalidate federal laws on equality and integration. While federal govt cannot outlaw cigarettes it can regulate them under need to protect the public health.

[steelpony10]

      Intruder - My point being the founders didn’t intend to create another kingdom. Partially why we have the right to bear arms to defend ourselves. Unfortunately the kingdom has nukes, drones and “traffic” cameras now. So regulate away and catch me if you can through my smartphone. I’ll still invest when and where I want as others can choose also. Cancer and butts create a lot of tax revenue to help protect the “Constitution”. Whose? 

[outandabout]

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@Intruder wrote:

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 While federal govt cannot outlaw cigarettes it can regulate them under need to protect the public health.

Fully agree, Intruder. Since the government pays the a portion of our healthcare, they should have a say with public health.

Maybe the answer to who is responsible for lung cancer treatment cost  should fall on the smoker. You smoke, you pay.

Why should the tax payer pay the high costs of treatment for those who choose to smoke?

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[steelpony10]

      Be careful what you guys are asking for. Lol. Why should I still pay for school taxes, mandated car  insurance, Obama care, SS for the oldies, foreign aide while our citizens have endless needs etc.

       Basically it’s social programs or social unrest. Check out the other countries. Give me an education a job, healthcare, a living wage etc. That’s why we pay for others bad choices. Take your pick. Social programs or social unrest. 

        In the U.S. the smoking rate is declining and big tobacco may find other unhealthy vices to go into. Even Uncle Warren drinks 5 Cokes a day. Oops add free dental and Diabetes treatment for obese Americans, probably well over 100 mil. Who will pay for that? Us.

[Intruder]

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@steelpony10 wrote:

      Be careful what you guys are asking for. Lol. Why should I still pay for school taxes, mandated car  insurance, Obama care, SS for the oldies, foreign aide while our citizens have endless needs etc.

       Basically it’s social programs or social unrest. Check out the other countries. Get me an education a job, healthcare, a living wage etc. That’s why we pay for others bad choices. Take your pick. Social programs or social unrest. 

        When the communists came knocking in the 30’s, the Roosevelts made us a socialist republic or maybe face regime change. A tidy war helped bring everyone back into the fold and America took advantage of a devastated industrialized world by creating wealth for all until the late 60’s. Look this up since you won’t believe it, the poorest people in the U.S. are among the richest people in the world. Moving out is always an option.

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What social unrest are you talking about in US? Median middle class income at 63k is highest ever. 266k jobs were created in Nov lowering unemployment rate to 3.5%, lowest in 50 years. Inflation is 1.8%, fed rate is 1/3 of what it was 13 years ago. GDP is growing 2.3+2.5%. 90% of US residents have health insurance. Stocks are at record levels.

[Intruder]

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@outandabout wrote:

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@Intruder wrote:

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 While federal govt cannot outlaw cigarettes it can regulate them under need to protect the public health.

Fully agree, Intruder. Since the government pays the a portion of our healthcare, they should have a say with public health.

Maybe the answer to who is responsible for lung cancer treatment cost  should fall on the smoker. You smoke, you pay.

Why should the tax payer pay the high costs of treatment for those who choose to smoke?

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Because taxpayers pay for cost of treatment for those who are alcoholics, overweight or drug addicts.

[Gary1952]

Why limit it to alcoholism and cancer? Red meat eaters or fast food burger fans should pay an excise fee to choose their poison. Little Mike Bloomberg already is covering the sugary 32 oz. soda drinkers with a tax.

[Intruder]

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@Gary1952 wrote:

Why limit it to alcoholism and cancer? Red meat eaters or fast food burger fans should pay an excise fee to choose their poison. Little Mike Bloomberg already is covering the sugary 32 oz. soda drinkers with a tax.

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Does anybody care are about bloomberg who pulled out of his 3 prior campaigns for president before the finish? Running in 2020 is just another vanity event for Bloomberg to get face time before he finds something more worthwhile and less expensive for his ego. One reason Bloomberg will never be nominated  is because with a net worth exceeding $50B he will never release his tax return. Bloomberg will be gone by March.

Bloombergs soda tax was declared unconstitutional by NY courts years ago. Where have you been?