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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@Sortatino2 wrote:

I buy NHMRX at interactive brokers. Just saw you message . 


Is there a minimum for NHMRX in Interactive Brokers? Do you have IBKR Lite or IBKR Pro?

How are their mutual fund offerings, like institutional funds - PIMIX, SPFLX, JMSIX, SEMMX, etc - are they available?

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@Gary1952 wrote:

SPFLX quote page shows the SEC yield as 6.49%. Seems very high. 


The monthly dist is over 0.05 (about 0.053) monthly except for one month.   I'm not going to calculate just do the estimation. That means 0.053 * 12 months = 0.636% 

Divide 0.636  /  by 9.9 * 100 and you will get 6.4% annually.   M* TTM = 6.76 is close to my estimation.

EIFAX TTM=5.5% and one explanation is that EIFAX bond rating is higher than SPFLX.

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


Since your calc. doesn't deduct the expenses per the SEC yield calc., the reported SEC yield is high. That was my point that the 6.36% looks strong for the future. With the price curently curving up RainGater may be playing momentum.
@FD1001 wrote:

@Gary1952 wrote:

SPFLX quote page shows the SEC yield as 6.49%. Seems very high. 


The monthly dist is over 0.05 (about 0.053) monthly except for one month.   I'm not going to calculate just do the estimation. That means 0.053 * 12 months = $0.636% 

Divide 0.636  /  by 9.9 * 100 and you will get 6.4% annually.   M* TTM = 6.76 is close to my estimation.

EIFAX TTM=5.5% and one explanation is that EIFAX bond rating is higher than SPFLX.


 

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

Gary1952: Since your calc. doesn't deduct the expenses per the SEC yield calc.,

I don't understand the expenses thing.  TTM is the actual dist for the last 12 months and what I find to be accurate.   SEC yield tries to forecast the next 12 months.  Usually, they are close.

But, in some cases the SEC yield can be off by a lot, PIMIX pays over 5.5% for years while it's SEC yield is lower than 3.5-4 for a few years already.

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

30-day SEC yield is affected by the average weighted price of the portfolio. I got the following data from old M*.

SPFLX  99.41  9/30/19

EIFAX  99.52  12/31/19

PIMIX  104.15   9/30/19

This detail is lost in TTM yield.

YBB
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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@yogibearbull wrote:

30-day SEC yield is affected by the average weighted price of the portfolio. I got the following data from old M*.

SPFLX  99.41  9/30/19

EIFAX  99.52  12/31/19

PIMIX  104.15   9/30/19

This detail is lost in TTM yield.


You add the distributions from the past 12 months, divide by the stock price and multiply by 100 and you get the yield. I am not sure what does the avg weighted price do to the yield?

For instance, 12 month dist for SPFLX = 0.65

2019 Yield: (0.65/9.64) * 100 = 6.74%.

So, 30 day SEC yield includes expenses and avg weighted price?

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

https://finance.zacks.com/30day-yield-mutual-fund-4602.html 30-Day Calculation

The 30-day yield is calculated by taking the fund's interest and/or dividend earnings for the most recent month and dividing by the average number of shares outstanding for the month times the highest share offer price on the last day of the month. The resulting monthly interest rate is compounded semi-annually for a 12-month yield. In effect, the calculation uses the most recent month's tally of net interest earnings and projects those earnings out for the next 12 months.

(The calculation is done by the mutual fund.)

 

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

Most summaries of 30-day SEC yield leave somethings to be desired. I have tried to summarize the process several times myself but don't have time now to search for those.

Full details are in the SEC Form N-1A, section 26(b)(4), pg 56-58. Refill your coffee cup before digging into it (-:)   https://www.sec.gov/about/forms/formn-1a.pdf

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

NHMRX minimum is around 2K. I have also have purchased PIMIX , JMUIX in the past .I have not tried to purchase the others but I remember seeing JMSIX available for 1M and SEMMX available for around 200K. VCFIX is not available but IISIX showed available. 

I use professional. Same interface as Lite oddly enough. Pro pays much higher interest on settlement funds and has much lower margin rates. Lite has free etf trades but sells orders . Pro places orders direct with nominal charge for etf trades but at likely better price. Bottom line is it makes more sense to use pro. Mutual fund trades are 15 dollars. 

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

For me, 30 day SEC yield doesn't make much sense and I am happy with the TTM yield as I can easily calculate the yield based on my purchase price. Thanks everyone for contributing to this yield discussion although it's slightly off topic.

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

Mostly correct. But expenses are deducted as well for the month. What struck me was TTM was the same as SEC for SPFLX. I didn't mean to start an SEC discussion but was using it as intended; to compare funds.

From Investopedia: Calculation of the SEC Yield

Most funds calculate a 30-day SEC yield on the last day of each month, though U.S. money market funds calculate and report a seven-day SEC yield. The standardized formula for the 30-day SEC yield consists of four variables:

a = interest and dividends received over the last 30-day period

 

b = accrued expenses over the last 30-day period, excluding reimbursements

 

c = the average number of shares outstanding, on a daily basis, which were entitled to receive distributions

 

d = the maximum price per share on the day of the calculation, the last day of the period

 

The formula of the annualized 30-day SEC yield is:

 

2 x (((a - b) / (c x d) + 1) ^ 6 - 1)


@jmrdnc wrote:

https://finance.zacks.com/30day-yield-mutual-fund-4602.html 30-Day Calculation

The 30-day yield is calculated by taking the fund's interest and/or dividend earnings for the most recent month and dividing by the average number of shares outstanding for the month times the highest share offer price on the last day of the month. The resulting monthly interest rate is compounded semi-annually for a 12-month yield. In effect, the calculation uses the most recent month's tally of net interest earnings and projects those earnings out for the next 12 months.

(The calculation is done by the mutual fund.)

 


 

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@yogibearbull wrote:

Most summaries of 30-day SEC yield leave somethings to be desired. I have tried to summarize the process several times myself but don't have time now to search for those.

Full details are in the SEC Form N-1A, section 26(b)(4), pg 56-58. Refill your coffee cup before digging into it (-:)   https://www.sec.gov/about/forms/formn-1a.pdf


Edit/Add: On search, I found a thread on 30-day SEC yield that I started in the new M* [so I didn't have to find it at old M* that is more tricky].   https://community.morningstar.com/t5/Bond-Squad/30-Day-SEC-Yield-for-Bond-Funds/m-p/26653

If I depended only on what I could do myself, my car may not be running [I let auto mechanics take care of that], and I may not be living [I let doctors and surgeons take care of that part]. Luckily, funds are required to calculate and publish 30-day SEC yield [some hire 3rd parties to perform the complex calculations], so one has to only understand what it means and how to use it [or not].

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


Hey Gary,

"net" means after expenses.

 "In effect, the calculation uses the most recent month's tally of net interest earnings."

@Gary1952 wrote:

Mostly correct. But expenses are deducted as well for the month. What struck me was TTM was the same as SEC for SPFLX.

From Investopedia: Calculation of the SEC Yield

Most funds calculate a 30-day SEC yield on the last day of each month, though U.S. money market funds calculate and report a seven-day SEC yield. The standardized formula for the 30-day SEC yield consists of four variables:

a = interest and dividends received over the last 30-day period

 

b = accrued expenses over the last 30-day period, excluding reimbursements

 

c = the average number of shares outstanding, on a daily basis, which were entitled to receive distributions

 

d = the maximum price per share on the day of the calculation, the last day of the period

 

The formula of the annualized 30-day SEC yield is:

 

2 x (((a - b) / (c x d) + 1) ^ 6 - 1)


@jmrdnc wrote:

https://finance.zacks.com/30day-yield-mutual-fund-4602.html 30-Day Calculation

The 30-day yield is calculated by taking the fund's interest and/or dividend earnings for the most recent month and dividing by the average number of shares outstanding for the month times the highest share offer price on the last day of the month. The resulting monthly interest rate is compounded semi-annually for a 12-month yield. In effect, the calculation uses the most recent month's tally of net interest earnings and projects those earnings out for the next 12 months.

(The calculation is done by the mutual fund.)

 


 


 

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@Sortatino2 wrote:

NHMRX minimum is around 2K. I have also have purchased PIMIX , JMUIX in the past .I have not tried to purchase the others but I remember seeing JMSIX available for 1M and SEMMX available for around 200K. VCFIX is not available but IISIX showed available. 

I use professional. Same interface as Lite oddly enough. Pro pays much higher interest on settlement funds and has much lower margin rates. Lite has free etf trades but sells orders . Pro places orders direct with nominal charge for etf trades but at likely better price. Bottom line is it makes more sense to use pro. Mutual fund trades are 15 dollars. 


Thanks a ton for the info and appreciate it. So, if I want to buy JMUIX or NHMRX or similar institutional class funds in IKBR Lite, I pay $15 fee + a min of $2000. Is that it or any other fees as I checked their website and they talk a lot about fixed and/or tiered pricing. I am interested in IKBR Lite as they charge a monthly maintenance fee for the PRO if we don't meet certain requirements. I also see that if I maintain $100 K or more in min balance, then this fee is waived for the PRO. I might bite it if there are no other fees other than the min balance of $100 or more.

I am planning to call on Monday to find out little bit more as I don't have any issues opening an account if I can get NHMRX or JMUIX or similar institutional class funds as in Fidelity, they charge a crazy high $49.95 fee. Same with Schwab.  Some of these inst funds have higher minimums too in Fidelity and Schwab. And, NHMRX is not available in either firms, so I go with NHMAX for this very reason.

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

wow, please stop the discussion of TTM and 30 days Sec yield and open a new thread. 

NHMRX isn't offered by retail VG,Fideility,Schwab. You can see where you can buy it (here)

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

MS  is missing Interactive Brokers for buying NHMRX 

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@Sortatino2 wrote:

MS  is missing Interactive Brokers for buying NHMRX 


Thanks. That's why I don't trust MS purchase page as it doesn't list all the brokers and their info is not always accurate.

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis

It costs 15 dollars to buy a fund and 15 dollars to sell on lite or pro . You will need to check minimums on other funds other than NHMRX. That one is around 2K If you hold 100K no brainer  to go with pro . The interface is terrible but once you get hang of it it is no problem . 

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@Sortatino2 wrote:

It costs 15 dollars to buy a fund and 15 dollars to sell on lite or pro . You will need to check minimums on other funds other than NHMRX. That one is around 2K If you hold 100K no brainer  to go with pro . The interface is terrible but once you get hang of it it is no problem . 


I created a free trial and can see the fund minimums and the TF (Lesser of 3% Trade Value or 14.95, per Transaction). I see that PRWCX is available for a minimum of $2,500. Is it for real as I thought it is closed everywhere?

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Re: 2020 - bond funds analysis


@FD1001 wrote:

@RainGater wrote:

Bank loans are screaming today. SPFLX up .04 or 0.41%. Let's see what EIFAX does today.

Bonds are rocking in general as 10 yr is sinking and good for the bond land!


I have a hard time believing in that since I didn't see it during trading hours.  SPFLX is not a typical BL.  See a (chart)

Rates are going down and why I don't want to hold BL.  EIFAX,FFRHX made nothing today.


I know it's not a big deal but SPFLX did move 4 cents the other day. It took a while for them to correct it. It's down 2 cents today though and it's no surprise as the 30 year hit a record low today! FWIW, EIFAX is down a little bit more.

https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/spflx/quote

 

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